Good morning, I'm State Representative Garland Pierce House District 48 and I also chair the Legislative Black Caucus and we want to once again welcome our guest Second Chance lobby day this the third time they have been here in the last five or six years we're just delighted on their continuous support of the issues they have shared with us today, this is a very important issue in our state, in hearing the speakers this morning I'm just really impressed, here with the in our midst, some of the things they had to overcome to be at this place where they are in life right now, and I like the terminology and I get to share thing morning. We here today to talk about people with unfavorable backgrounds, we don't like those words ex-cons and thugs and all of those other words that we'd use sometime to describe people but these are people with unfavoured backgrounds who need a chance, who need an opportunity to get back in their communities and be a part of those communities, they've already as we say, paid their debt to society and there ready now to begin a new part of their life. One particular I want to talk about where many others would talk, House Bill 512 ban the box, I think you view that conversation over and over again since we've been in the general assembly, we are delighted of those counties, particularly what we do know that, the application then I hear somebody say there is more the coke brothers, they view to be taking off their applications to give people an opportunity so there is room for this there is opportunity for us to do the right thing it relates to bearing the box not the legislation that will make a difference in the life of our citizens and as Mr. Speaker's talk about this morning, these are people in our community whose coming back home wanting to do the right thing and we have an opportunity and obligation to help them with any legislation, most legislation was passed this time, our people are still in consolidation if there is any outstanding warrant waiting for them, let's clear up when they are setting there then there was another issue where with the driver's licence why should you come out of the corrections you had time to sit there, they had time to get there together. So things like that we can hear coming out is just sitting there, we we have the resources to have the MP prepared for life after they've finished their ecostoration, so I do want to thank all this people in advance sinners for joining us today and they will have comments but we're here and we do believe in a second chance, because all of us, if the truth be told, have had some second so why not give others a second chance, thank state representative volunteers. Good morning, Dennis Gaddy is my name, I currently serve as the executive of Community Success Initiative, which is a local non-profit organization 11 years old that works with men and women coming out of incarceration. I didn't wake up one morning and say I'm not doing anything else to think I would start arrange a program makes some poor choices myself and spend five and a half years in the North Carolina department of corrections and had a good fortune to kind of have a support group on the outside, a wife and family and church and community to be able to kind of get myself back on track. So we've had the good fortune to be able to leave this group and be a part of the second chance alliance which is the organization of the group that kind of put this together today, to talk about issues that hinder men and women who are coming out of incrustations are who find themselves entangled in the criminal and justice system. On a history note we started having this conversation back in 2005 and 6 and 7, just having some local round tables in the community over fellowship and food and bringing people together to talk about at that time what was a new topic called reentry and Representative Piers, thanks to him, came to some of those round table meetings and came to some of those conversations and brought the conversation down to John street and so we began to have a steady committee in 2008 for two years we started to have it impacts people coming out and so it's a massive constoration and begin to have momentum in that arena and then we have a range of councils coming out there because I believe that I've not a lot came out of that, expounchment laws have been updated, I also want to have some more work on expounchiment bills but at least I'll be headed in the conversation and those now are thriving across the State and I think we have five now and we have five more on debt. So we're proud of the work we've had to do down here, and we're proud of Representative [xx] for leading the way for us and other Representatives as well. Senator Angelo Brian, who's also part of the forefront, on the front lines as making that happen and we're here today to kind of keep the psyche and kind of beat the drums so people can have second chances and can have a positive and productive life. At this time, I think
we have a couple more of our representatives, Representative Jackson, is here. Senator Jackson, I'm sorry and Senator Woodard. Thank you. It used to be that the worst part about being convicted of a minor criminal offence, was here to spend a few days in jail now those consequences are dwarfed by the long term financial that prevents people from being able to provide for themselves and provide for their family. I was a criminal prosecutor before I came here. I know the importance of holding people accountable for their conduct. But I also know that it is possible to go too far, its possible to destroy lives for no good reason we need to make sure that we're punishing people in a way that does not make them permanently unemployable. Because then they are permanently dependent on the state and nobody wants that. I encourage all of us to look past all of these political labels of tough on crime or soft on crime and look at what we're actually doing to pick that after they've paid their debt as a society, look at the lives that we've actually locked[sp?] them into, look at the cage that we have walked in mine time. As we solve there is more reasonable approach to this issue as a former prosecutor I truly believe that there is, I will forward disappoint this registration. There is room for second chances in our criminal justice all more by senator Mikeweather. Thank senator Jackson and representative Pears for all of these epsona, thank all for your leadership. Share the story in 1999 served as state president of North Carolina JC some other thing s that JC have ever done is we establish JC chapters in prison units and the year I was a presindent to JC we established two chapels. In present and I so enjoyed going there and I took movement and hoping this guest of state correction give back into the flow of things by starting a civil club in doing good in their community as limited as it was. We so it as way to begin to restart to the community and start to give back. And have the chance over those 15 years to follow a number of men I work with in the JC organization, and I have watched this struggle to very interesting in the society one of the young men that I had the pleasure of working with, actually choose Joram as his home and he's come back established a career he's a writer, a film maker and he started his own small business but Michael has struggled greatly, greatly many obstacles have been in front of him re-establishing himself having a re-entry and being a productive member of the Durham community. Many doors were closed to him because of the time that he spent in jail that's why he's a member of the Durham City Council for seven years, I helped lead the effort to ban the box in the city of Durham and Durham county and I'm very pleased representative Pierce mentioned this that Durham was the first local Government to do this and I felt very proud of our efforts in that. we begin to see a payoff and while we took the lead as Government entities and we see more and more businesses who are beginning to ban the box, to at least give this men and women returning to society trying to find that re-entry to become productive citizens again to at least give them let them in the front door, give them that first step then they have the opportunity with their potential employer to explain what their life is like, not to be prejudiced at that first step, not to let that box on the application be a filter that casts them off right there that prohibits the ability to contribute to society and to be a part of the re-entry program the full rage of bills for representative Pierce mentioned one that I'm particularly interested in the box but there are so many other that we need to get behind raise the age of your prosecution age 18 that 's something that we need to continue to work on expansions as we already talked about the just reinvestment act savings into community based programs, that's when we're going to be successful, we are not going to be successful sitting here this programs, we need to reinvest those savings and let them get into the local communities where they can make the biggest difference and help these men and women re-enter our society, become product members of these. It's a common sense dollars
and cents solution to the issue of re-entry. I stand with my colleagues in support and the advocates with support of this and hope that we can begin and continues to move this forward. Now we hear from representative Ralph Jackson from Guilford and then senator Gatson and then senator Waddel after him. Thank you. Thank you ladies and gentleman for coming today, this is very important, let me just tell you a little story, I'll tell you my own little story. I've had some disscrace for the law and this probably the fist time that I'm actually saying it but I was given a second chance okay I was given a second chance, I was late with graduating from college, and I don't take that lightly, I think what happens a lot of times that folks are labelled that they're criminals, they're ex-offender, but it was said earlier we're all people and we can't loose sight of that, and I think what happens, well, what's been happening is that we have past legislation to thwart people from continuing with their lives, and I don't think that's right. And I want to do everything on my end to do that, what's so funny is that there's an old saying that people will talk about you, they will say things about you, but they will not give you a head up, and that's not right and what I want do right now is stand with my colleagues and we need to fight this because there are people out there that just need an opportunity. W here is that opportunity coming from? Is that actually going to come from up here? I would hope so. Is that opportunity going to come from the community? I would hope so but at the end of the day it's going to take everybody to pitch in and do what's right and again I'm Ralph Johnson from Gilford county Thank you I'm Senator Joyce Wadell from Charlotte and as this former school board member I've seen the devastation that can happen to young people at an early age 17, 18, 19 their lives once they are in the system are devastated so I stand to support this bill 612 and the other pieces of legislation they give second chance to our young men and women they should what happen to young people who are in high school with a record that will follow them for the rest of their lives. In fact their lives are just destroyed so these pieces of legislation house bill 612 and others will allow them to reenter society and have a second chance in life, second chance for employment, a second chance to be given back to this community to be men and women who can support families and be productive. Without a second chance a life is destroyed that's not what we want for North Carolina, that's not what we want for our counties, we want productive people and that's why I will fight so hard to educate them and their lives cannot be dismissed. Thank you Thank you. Now to get a more in-depth over view of the legislatives shown that we're advocating for today I'm going to bring on Attorney Daryl Atkinson to come and give us a deeper over view of what we're here today to support. Thank you Dennis and thank you all for being here today at our bi-annual Second Chance Advocacy Day. My names is Daryl Atkinson, I'm Senior Attorney at Southern Coalition for Social Justice, a leader a clean slate work where we work on giving people second chances in the form of expansion and certificates of relief. Which brings me to the reason that I'm tasked in front of you right now is to kind of give you a broad overview of some of the pieces of legislation that we're working towards. We're working towards justice re-investment, re-investing some of the savings that we've been able to incur from closing down prisons, shrinking out correction footprint and we need to re-invest that into the communities most directly impacted by mass criminalisation, because in reality many of those communities haven't even received the first
we're also looking for expanding clean slate, expangement in certificate of relief opportunities because in reality people don't have a bad day, they usually have had a bad period in life, as a result they might have multiple contact with the criminal justice system and because our expangement laws are so narrow right now many of them are rendered ineligible for that form of relief and they're unable to turn the page online. We're looking to raise the age of juvenile jurisdiction because we need to stop criminalizing our kids. All of our social science and psychological science show that children cannot fully appreciate the wrongfulness of some of their choices. As a result, we shouldn't hold them fully culpable for life long of misery and despair, destitute and trapped in a cycle of poverty and criminality. It just makes fiscal sense, it makes public safety sense and it also makes sense from a human capital and human dignity perspective we've heard a lot about [xx] and I want to give a shout out to Senator Woodard, who was a Durham City Council [xx] at that time, and we've seen very fruitful outcome from this policy change. So, evidence-based practices are all the rage. We have evidence in Durham that this policy works. The year that the policy passed, the percentage of people with criminal records hired by the City was at 2%, the next year it doubled to 4.4%, the year after that it doubled again to 9% and last year in 2014, 15% of total hires in Durham were people with records and you know what you all, the sky didn't rain down plagues, the earth didn't open up and swallow anybody up, life continued as usual but now people with records had an opportunity to feed their families, pay their taxes, contribute to their society and one more thing these increases and the hiring rate of people whose records have happened without any increases in workplace conflict and none of those folks has been terminated because they committed the subsequent offence as a result they have not [xx] so this makes sense from fiscal responsibility perspective from a public state perspective as well as a human capital perspective. I come to this work out of my own personal experiences, in 1996 I was convicted of a first time non-violent drug crime, and I spent 40 months in prison. Fortunately enough for me, I returned home to a loving family that could provide me food, clothing and shelter and I didn't have those immediate pressures pressed down upon me. As a result I was able to be successful, get my associates degree, my bachelors degree, my law degree, I'm licensed to practice law in both Minnesota and North Carolina and 70% of our advocacy work at SENJ is focused on giving people second chances. The reason how that story is not to lift up any extra ordinary attributes about me, because I don't believe I'm that extra ordinary. I know that more people could be successful, if they had the necessary support system, the way that we do that in society is by creating a policy environment where people can be successful, and then we'll have more success stories. Thank you for your time. At this time I'm going to ask the Honorable Carol White to come and have comment, she is the clerk of court of Edgecombe county here in North Carolina, and she's part of our Second Chance Alliance team. Carol Thank you so much Dennis. I'm so grateful to be here this afternoon. I'm Carol Allen White, I'm the elected clerk of court for Edgecombe county. I also wear many different hats. I'm also the newly founding pastor of Greater is Coming Ministry. Also advocate for, it starts with you a non profit organization that helps re-entry and transition. I'm in support of the feels that has been presented here today, and I really applaud the leadership here on today. I'm also a mother who have experienced a person being incarcerated, but I'm grateful to know that he's turned his life around with the support of him making up his mind as knowing that it starts with you and also support and prayers of his family and loved ones and so today, I know and I believe that whosoever will, let them come for a second chance, and I ask you to continue to be awake at the wheel as you see these different things that are going on in our community. We're no stronger than our community, and we're no weaker than our community.
But together we can make a difference with the second chance and it does it starts with you, and again I'm so grateful to be here today and I'm honored to have all the support of the individuals here, behind me and you in the audience to know that it does make a difference and it does starts with you, and we all need a second chance, thank you. I'm going to ask attorney representative Hearson step to the podium we can entertain any question you may have any time. Don't be shy. Any question? Yes. Okay, good. Reverend Malcom Betts of East and North Carolina coalition for Christ and I come on being a former appender in aggrevania I'm wondering and I rose the subject to a young lady here in the news and observe room. Why is it that inmates can spend years in the judicial system, in the prison system incarcerated, working on the road crews, building roads, patching roads, cleaning roads will get out make an eye coverage job, get a job at the state department, I mean with the road department. North Carolina fixing the roads, I've go to about that I spent close to two years working for a seniors in a county and I was the cook. The cook for the county got fired because she couldn't pass a drug test. I was going out for a dollar a day cooking for 250 senior citizens. But when I got out of prison went back to try to get a job, record, I had a record to get a job is a ghost. So I said where can I get a job watching the race treatment plan. Well you thought you trashed it, know you got a criminal record last while you were in prison. We're good to enough work these jobs, once we get out, can't get a job. I think that's true but I think what has occurred of the last six years in this re-entry movement is going to change all that I think the whole and about issues the whole thing about emphasizing giving people second chance and I think you are going to see that change but over the last eight years we've been working to try to solve those kinds of problems. There're two questions here we've quick question and this is either you or senator Woodward Jackson No wonder if any of these bills make it to crossover or are they still live for discussion from the house I know that I did not get a hearing a committee hearing on the house bill 612, I did not I don't think that any bills of that substance how sad get a hearing a chance to make it over so you that you put a dollar amount to it you know it has a problem with it but yeah, I'm sorry. Okay, certificates of release that has summer cities, okay thank you let me ask questions a bit I think you got to get put that raven about being able to work those jobs while you incur the same job, that's something to really shine a light on in terms of working forth with that and but there were also messes where people do rotate into the they fake the death, the norm but some have rotated to some state jobs and that's something that we talked about a couple of years back that must get to remember where we are telling the State you are telling everybody to do things the state ought to do the same thing particularly those jobs like DOT and other things where you should have an opportunity to get out and do what you can so I think that's what we're going to work on thank you. Any question? Yeah I have the same question but regarding employments and employers going to ask about [xx] on the streets. Is there any push back from the business community and have there been any concessions from them I can comment on our Durham experience a little bit. One of the concerns are particularly from HR that they thought laying the question would gum up works of HR and we just haven't found that to be true. What we have seen though and what really we're stressing is dis-concept of individualized assessment. Now we are not saying that every job is appropriate for every person am a parent I have a soon-to-be 3 year old and I would be concerned if I found out that one of the employees at her day care provider had a has criminal history of child abuse, there is a direct relationship between that underlying criminal activity and perspective job, but in many instances employers are using criminal records history as absolute disqualify, they are not making that individual light assessment to make sure that there's a direct relationship
between the underlying criminal conviction and perspective job so, example someone convicted of having possession of $20 clock watch 10 years ago they should be able to work and shipping and receiving, particularly if they can produce evidence that they have been in AA or in ANET they followed a treatment protocol there is not that direct relationship so we are asking employers to make a more search inventory in making a decision on who is appropriate for a particular job. I think with this nominal fate Mr. Garry talked about a lot of many men and women are coming back home and if we fail to find something for them to do, they will find something to do that could be detrimental to them and to our society so I think as [xx] again there are certain jobs, as the attorney[sp?] said that people get, and then you get Durham I'm quite sure that Senator Woodard can tell you about jobs that they've opened up in Durham. If he would speak to that I think it you have a good look on Senator Woodard on some of the jobs you guys have opened up in Durham, if you don't mind. Sure, and I think that the question about the business community a lot of it I think has been early on, and we've been fighting this battle for quite some time, and we're going to continue to fight it. So this is just we're going to keep coming back and keep coming back because I think we're seeing the tide turn, and part of that is having businesses understand this a lot better, and begin to develop their own individual life's assessments, and understanding that in their human resource departments that it doesn't have to slow down processes, and that in fact they find they have good employees. So a lot of it is simply understanding what it is, and opening themselves up and opening up their thinking, and I think we've seen that tide start to turn a little bit so that businesses more and more are receptive to banning their on their application when they see government entities do it and when they see large employers do it and we're starting to see that effect ripple throughout the business community and you've heard a number of the jobs that we've opened through city county government and we're staring to see these men and women who came in at two percent and then four percent, advancing their careers, so now that they came in perhaps as front line employees, may be they would do in manual work, then they'd move up to supervisor level so we're seeing career advancement with these folks, and there is a wide range of jobs because, as the Reverend talked about, these folks may have learned a new skill and developed something while they were incarcerated that they can put a positive direction when they get out and can find that employment Bad guys skip program. A lot of people come out, they do it in there training in the top level but here's an entrepreneur that just wants to have a word and I just didn't want to cut him off talking about his esteems. I want to direct it to the Attorney. I'm sure that even the government, excuse me, workforce co-operations have to follow the Statutory law in the country [xx] and why is it that when I look at government statue 31 said that am to maintain all my rights. How it it that means corporations can mandate that they put this box right here that denies my right to financial freedom and liberty when the courts clearly said, once I met all this criteria, all probation fees and whatever, that I would retain these rights to pursue except for the second amendment on understanding. That's my first question, how can he get away with this, and secondly, I agree with you wholeheartedly that not every person that has committed crime should work in every type of workforce because of their particular crimes. But in my case, my clients had nothing to do with helping people and I OPS force acts as a new drug abuse treat its vessels instead of buying in North Carolina. So they need to centralize that and on a case by case assessment because [xx] so they need to make an assessment case by case, and then once they make that assessment, [xx] being convicted of crime that is contingent upon this job description. If you are then you'll not be hired. That person won't then move forward to pursue that job because he knows he won't get that job so we can go on to the first question, the first answer is they can't and the equal the equal employment opportunity commission issued some guidance in 2012. That layed out how employer both public and private could use criminal record in the evaluation of weather, someone could get a particular job on being promoted. And regarding laid out very clearly that absolute boss of how people with criminal record could one the title seven of the civil right hand we need more reinforcement robot obviously, one thing I want to highlight is this not a survetive of
progressive issues, we justice passed Monday Cork industries, bend up for all their cooperate affiliates. The have 12, 000 people. They employ over 12, 000 people across the United States and seeing the vice president in cold and I had opportunity to meet him and then John and by Peterson summit he said, this is the more thing to do, not just to addition to it helps our bottom line and helps us find a more qualified African pool we see, he see this as the more thing to do. When we think about the turmoil that's going on around the country. One of the common denominators are communities feeling completely shut out of opportunity of being able to get employment, of being able to pursue the American dream, whether you're talking about Fergusson, whether you're talking about Stagg Allan, whether you're talking about Baltimore these communities have essentially been shut out. We have to be proactive and prevent it in North Carolina to make sure that we create an environment all citizens have access to opportunity even if they've had past contact with the Criminal Justice System. Yes ma'am. You just talked about this bipartisan issue but I couldn't help but notice on the house bill you sponsored but are getting reporting. Sir what would you do to work more with next time around to make it bipartisan. Well, couple questions I think, usually getting fan folks are willing to this environment there are some bills that the party in power is going to tell the members not to sign on as to reality and we know that, there some bills that some vowed on but on this one you're right, they did not sign on it so this is the position of the party seeing that they did not get a committee, opportunity sharing committee, that lets us know that the leadership, it's just certain build that leadership is just not going to put a stamp of approval on to even give you opportunity sometime to even discuss some in the public venue out here, so I think that what happens and the both parties do it probably but I know that happens a lot certain deals, they're not going to see the light and they're not even going to have a conversation. And I'd like to add to that we are still on a fight here. This is a movement, our moment, right? And the thing about it is I think about 10 years ago, when we started having round table discussions in the community with five people and some hot love lunch that I didn't know that in three years it will lead to a study committee. right, so to make this may just take some time for that to happen. You just got to keep beating the drum, you've got to keep talking the talk, keep walking the walk having people's faces to talk about it and I think we can eventually bring back partnership together. Now and if we don't do it then everybody pays the price either in our polls in prison or the safety those kinds of things, and there will be more people coming home out of prison for the next 10 years and in no time in our history 700, 000 plus coming out per year. Each year in American not even counting jail alright, so if we don't do something to help people stay out of prison, then enforce a 35% and that's on the low end of people go back to prison within a three year period of time that's a lot of new criminalisation, that's a lot of new victimization. And if you make it hard to do the right thing, you make it easy to do the wrong thing , so therefore. Hello, my name is Daniel Boaz, I'm an advocate with the North Carolina justice and I want to respond to two questions that have come up first, which bills are still alive. And I will point out that of the bill that we're supporting on this issue at the end there is only one that is in the sense not allowed at this point you can be raising the age with our subject to cross over because it had a fee provision or appropriation and similarly one of the expungsion laws is the Dochry sponsored or Senator Jackson, Senator Hartsell and Senetor Wardell that was not also subject to cross over, we've also had a bill sponsored by Representative Graham, facilitate which is successful entry by making sure that any outstanding warrants are disposed up before somebody leaves prison, that past the house, and the [xx] senate and then also as someone said before certificates are released that is past the house now and the senate and we hope that supporting local entry councils as part of the budget conversation, now I also want to respond to the idea about partisanship. This is one of the few battles about partisan issues over there, we work closely with Representative Doultrey and Senator Hartsole, Senator Daniels in
addition to the many democratic this issue and of the last three years especially I've had strong backup and support and so we've had ten re-entry focus bills passed they were all sponsored by Republicans and Democrats. I'm glad to provide you a list of those bills that were passed in the last four years. Thank you. Okay, I just happen to see Representative Rodney Moore and I couldn't pass him, have him passed by all that and some comments, even though it's not on our agenda today it's very important, close to our conversation and as bill number 193 to prevent our discriminatory profiler. So I'd like for him to come and speak to that just for a moment, although its not on our paper work today, its not anything we advocating for per se, but is still part of our conversation. So Representative Moore would you come and have a comment please? Good afternoon. Good afternoon. And thank you Denis brother Gary[sp?] for your commitment and your leadership, in this effort. Very quickly let me say that I'm Representative Rodney Moore I represent Mecklenburg county House district 99, Mecklenburg and let me just talk briefly about a couple of things. We in North Carolina immigrant community, House bill 193 strives to start some of the things that are happening before they start, we have to understand, we have to be honest with one another that we have an issue with profiling with racial profiling, with gender identity profiling, with profiling by religion and all of the things in this country, and so we as elected officials in the state of North Carolina want to be pro-active, very pro-active in stopping those incidences and stopping the things that you've seen on TV as it relates Erogon the protest with fame and most recently Freddie, Freddie Grey. Freddie Grey, absolutely, thank you representative. And so this is what this bill tends to try to do, it addresses interaction with community and current law enforcement, it compels law enforcement to have more diverse training so that law enforcement official can understand the populous that they enforce in this new North Carolina, as we see the North Carolina that I grew up in and Reverend Pius grew up in is vastly different now. From the times that we grew up in, we have more integrated population, we have more influx of a different culture and so our police force needs to understand how we can effectively and fairly police in 21st century. And so I won't go on and on, but I do want to say that I am a supporter of your efforts and we really need to put some band of box legislation on the books because that way, we can start first and fairness equity and help some of our gentlemen and young ladies who come from other criminal justice system to have a list of finding chance, a list of finding chance to be reintegrated back to the society and be productive citizens. So thank you for this opportunity to speak and, God bless you. I just want to have one thing one of the things that we have really talked about, is the fact that we have not talked about Wall Street. Wall Street has seen that goes at the past from all this, in terms of the crimes, millions and billions of dollars that they had stolen from the citizens of this country and we need to make them accountable also because someone owes moneys that they have stolen us, they should have to gett opportunity to get those moneys back somehow, it just seems to me that there have been rewarded lather than being held accountable to what you have done to this country, and I just want to add that. Thank you there are no other questions? I just have one more please to tackled, and gentleman [xx] I was there with [xx] Williams civil rights have to do with making a right turn, and I have pain, however they told I got one question and I have got zero to nine inspire has
been one and out, but how that will make other people likely who have bought the Clerns and we opportunity taken or believe, I will start at that there is no record and there is none to watch on TV here they are and a question appealed to him explaining what we are talking about that in how with them, and this gonna get to the microphone, and begging I can change. Where do we go? So an expansion has been limited to a non-violent offence and I don't know that it will ever, violent crimes will ever be expunged but that is where certificates of release do fit in so a certificate of release doesn't actually distinguish between a violent offence or non-violent offence. Its up to a class G felony, and it's because it's not expunged from the record. An employer still sees that the person was convicted of that specific crime, it just says that that person has gone before the same court that convicted them and that court has said that this person doesn't pose an unreasonable risk to society. So we're storing more of their rights making it so that occupational licensing, sanctions and other automatic disabilities are turned into discretionary disqualifications. So a certificate of relief doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to automatically get that job, but it overrides that automatic sanction. So that a decision maker still has the discretion to decide whether you can be in that job, and it also provides protections for that employer, or for that landlord against negligent hiring or negligent leasing liability. So we do think certificates of relie are not expunging record by still allowing the business community and other ones to sort of foresee the record, but by providing evidence of rehabilitation is a middle ground that's available to people with all sorts of convictions including bound convictions okay. Thank you all, if there aren't any other question, we thank all for coming and we would like to have you all join us for lunch. We have lunches in the 1200 court, drop out and get the lunch and a bottle of water and will hope you will enjoy your day, thank you.