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Joint | September 9, 2015 | Committee Room | Energy Policy Forum

Full MP3 Audio File

Thank you very much first of all I want to thank everyone for joining us and for the panelists who have taken time out of their schedule in some cases negotiations and what not for a little chat about this important issue. My name is Tom Palm. The president of the American Energy Alliance and we are a non profitable organization. We are an advocacy organization that focuses on pursuing policies that lead to abundant and affordable and reliable energy choices for consumers and the main reason we are involved in this issue. I'd also like to say it's really nice to be back although most of the time that I'm here I'm in flip flops and bathing suits and hanging out eating barbeque but still a good time to be here. I want to introduce very briefly, just introduce their names and where they are from and what their association is and then I want them to tell their own stories and then we'll get right into it. First I'd like to thank Senator Angie Brock and Representative Mike Hager for joining us, both leaders on this issue. I'd also like to welcome Dr. Haber Eclelin[sp?] who is with North Carolina State University and founder of the North Carolina solar center. Also will like to welcome Dr. Liam yang[sp?] with [xx] policy centre who have been doing some economic analysis on this and other similar issues across the country. And finally Ronnie Jackson who is owner and operator of Clinton[sp?] Truck and Tractor which is the largest dealer of case farm equipment North East Carolina. I would also to recognize my friend Bobby Randy who is not with us today who had planned to be here but, I also Intend to read a statement that he asked me to provide for everyone's benefit. But first I'd like to have you all introduce yourselves then we'll get right into it. So, Dr Ecalen[sp?] and I believe you have to hold the button down. Okay, thanks. Well, thank you Tom. I've been in NC state for many years but in 1935, can you hear me? Now I can hear you. Keep it kind of close please, thanks. And in 19 I designed and built the Solar house. In 1987 I established the Solar Centre. I was faculty chair of the Solar Centre from 1987 til 2002, I've been involved in a lot of other energy activities at stake and I have proponent of solar for 35 years. When we talking about solar, we're talking about passive solar for heating a space, domestic hot water and solar electricity. So I'm a supporter of all of those. And I've been a member of NCSCA for all 35 years or so, I'm glad to be here. Thank you. Ronnie? I'm Ronnie Jackson, I'm the owner and president, as you mentioned, of Clean Truck Contractor company K sites former equipment data locating plant. I've been there 44 years work with an international harvest company about seven years after I graduated from North Carolina state. In short, my entire life has been associated with agriculture and some form of another and grown up on a small farm in Samson county. Now I was asked to be here today to explain how renewable energy primarily solar is affecting my business and my customers. I would like to begin by saying that I do not think that all these renewable energy solutions can be lapped into one package. Some of this initiatives primarily livestock and poultry linen sales to perform in a service providing a way to profit from the disposable waste. This, in my opinion was a reason, this whole process started several years ago. I come from Samson county, and I very much appreciate the way of livestock industry and the poultry industry. It means a lot to our area and it means a lot to our state, and number one industry in the state of Carolina. I'm highly in favor of in support efforts to enhance this method of providing renewable energy. Solar forms, on the other hand, do nothing but take away some our best form land, I know that there are a lot of people who disagree with this, some can point as they always do to how many jobs are created and others talk about investment here's my thinking on that. Number one these jobs are going to be gone as soon as these solar panels are erected and the fence put up. You don't need a lot of people weeding grass around the fence and watch those panels produce electricity. Investment going on is a lot of mine and your money. Our return is enabling us to buy overpriced electricity. The real winners are the investors in the solar reforms who can almost guarantee not to pay you because the government guarantees building. In a nutshell in my area, unless you are a landowner who

can lease this land for a solar reform at an unbelievably high rate then you are being negatively impacted by solar reforms. When two of my very best customers can loose over 500 acres of the best finest farm land and are here to sell reforms then in my opinion we are on a wrong track. The numbers that I hear are the solar forms are able to pay the land owner close to 10 times what the normal yearly rent will be. And this can be verified don't take my word for it but you cant blame the owner for selling the land when he's offered such an outlandish price for this land, and my biggest concern other than the fact that my tax money is that the solar forms are being placed in the finest homeland. that we have in our area. In one situation I can take you to now, once that has recently been approved, over 300 acres of a completely flat irrigated for you, is being turned into a solar form. I've asked a lot of questions about this and I was told that the original intent was to use marginal form land. But somehow that got lost in the shuffle several years ago. And someone who's involved agriculture all my entire life, it is heartbreaking to see this land taken by industry that leans on the government handouts. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Senator. Thank you. I'm Andrew Brock, from Davie County, representing Davie, Iredell and Rowan in the state senate district 34. This is my seventh term, and when I was first elected one of my welcome note rally moments was that Pillowtex in Kannapolis, part of my district was closing down. 4, 600 people lost their jobs over night and when you look at the cost to manufacturing with that and other regulations especially, that my district was as hit hard as any area of the country during the recession, and when we put artificial barriers to the cost of business and for jobs that they go elsewhere, and dealing with that we had double digits raise of unemployment and it was really tough for us to try to get jobs back in this areas, one thing I've always followed is how economic development follows low price energy and its true its why North Carolina through its history was able to try manufacturing in jobs because of the power line of our rivers and streams with that we have been able to generate power and why North Carolina became a leader manufacturer because our ability to have low costs energy and help us in manufacturing. But when we put artificial barriers those jobs went elsewhere, and that's why North Carolina was hit harder than anywhere else in country during the recession especially manufacturing jobs. So I'm just glad to a part of this panel, thank you. Thank you very much representative Hager. Thank you, My name is Mike Hager 112 district Rathford counties, been here in assembly since 2011 house majority leader I think, senator Block and I both agree and most legislator agrees. Legislator agrees that's all manager all inherent good, how you include them in what we think is the future of North Carolina in a long time energy plan is a critical piece. What we've done here to fall is a patch work, we build time in grandmother patchwork wilt, we put renewable here, we may talk about 3rd parties sales here we may [xx] other things that have to do energy whether it's construction work in progress, and some of the things for nuclear, and some of the other issues, but we never have talked about in a long term energy plan, and that's what North Carolina needs, I think that's what the senate and the House is really dedicated to do to, to kind of hold hold everything freeze everything together, and develop a long term energy to do what what Senator Broke said, have the industry follow the low cost energy, and that's what we're about here in North Carolina. That's great, I look forward to get in that a little bit in the Q&A. Dr. Young? Thanks sir, my name is Ryan Young, and I'm the Executive Director at Strata policy, a non profit think tank, focused on providing information to individuals and policy because as they attempt to weed through the various decisions they have. The focus is on the effects of policy decision decisions that have been made both in the past and going forward. As well assistant professor Utah State University which works closely with a policy and training students to be policy analyst. Thanks Ryan. So at this point I'd like to read a statement from Bob Ladley as I mentioned who wanted to be here today, but was felt very strongly that his voice be heard anyway, so I will do my best to do that. He's the CEO of Captive Air Inc, and they are the leading privately held

company that produces the ventilation systems for kitchen products for kitchens, and Bob feels very strongly about this issue, he has a lot of experience here and what it takes to run a company that knows the importance of affordable energy in that process. So here we we go, modern productive manufacturing requires sophisticated machinery powered by low cost electricity. Laws that increase the cost of power undermine American manufacturing and international competitiveness. Sustainability is an important circular idea but it only make sense if it is market based.government require purchases reducing senate to create cost effective sustainable solutions. In many cases, efforts towards sustainability increase capital costs that might otherwise be used for innovation. For example, in the case of wind and solar power. Total capital cost for electric generation increased, because base low generation must still be provided to cover times when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shinning. Other problems emerge in the case of wind generation. The laws of physics remain in violet, including the cubic function of frictional drag of the blades, and this is definitely Bob talking at me. Such that when the wind is blowing it has to be only one eighth, the rated power is generated. Increasing electric utility rates for all users including manufacturers have serious adverse impacts on our economy. Green energy may be a noble goal but it only make sense if it's cost effective and market driven. Subsidies are often sold as near term, but they're [xx] centers and most often become permanent. Many industries including Captive Air has spend enormous amount to reduce the use of energy when its made economic sense and its truly sustainable.government's mandates of this nature undermine indigenous manufactures, and their ability to compete in the market through innovations not government imposed mandates. Efficient manufacturing cannot flourish in states that's subsidized inefficiency and punish productive manufacturers. So with that I want to actually just get right into to sort of Q&A and I want to start with Rooney because Rooney you are also in business and you kind of I understand some of the bottom line impacts of higher electricity rates. So do you have similar experiences, besides the impact on farming communities I terms of how your business is handling that this increases and some of the potential impacts? well obviously high electrical rates will have some impact although we are not a heavy electrical user. The primary impact to our business has been the loss of farm land, the loss of a number of acres that my customers can actually farm they have as most of you probably some of you know maybe not all of you know farmers are large now 6, 000 acres. They don't own all this land, they own parts of it. Have to rent a lot of land and a lot of landlords it's very appealing for them to see the kind of money that are offered for solar farm, s and guys are loosing land right and left and it is becoming a problem. So to that issues and to the issue of impacts Ryan you've been doing some work on this so were going to get into some economics one on one here, but what have you seen the impacts and really focus in on how it impacts North Carolina families in particular. Yeah, no I think that's the key question time that you actually want talk about the impact of policies. It's very easy to look and say here's what we think it should have done, but there's something when you actually look at what the impact is on families and so what we have been looking at is a number of states, well over 30 have implemented our PI standards across the country and we have been tracking those in a macro economic level to see what are the impacts, and the impacts are negative. For North Carolina they're under the tune of $3, 800 in [xx] increases in household income, almost 24, 000 jobs that could have been created that as we mandate moving to one set of energies over another, we disrupt the free market and we lose that. But it comes back to that family. $3, 800, I don't know, I'd feel that impact, and I think many North Carolina families do as well. Well, and if you factor in the fact that we all pay for energy. Some of us can afford those increases but at the end of the day, this family budgets are impacted disproportionately right. Who gets hurt the

more when these prices go up. The folks that get hurt the most are those that are at the very least able to afford it, the folks that are tied to fixed income at the low end of the schedule. Those that are most effective than the economy deeps. I mean, overall university faculty we tend to survive okay during economy downturn, but those that are not hidden in the Ivory Tower face a far tougher situation and it's those that can least afford it that are most impacted. So to just to that end I want to have you guys both take a stab at that too you're seeing impacts in your districts, in the areas that you represent. How does it hurt that small farm community for example? How does it impact what's happening on the ground in your areas? I think especially when I saw the effects of the pillow techs of that. It wasn't just the 4, 600 initial employees that lost their job, was a net effect of over 10, 000 because you had fewer people going to restaurants, fewer people going to the stores and that type of system cause more, and more, and more to that sure jobs and also these were the jobs that people can least afford it. They don't have as much disposable income as others so it really negatively affects them of what they can do of what their purchasing power or an [xx] that you and C center IV competitive economies so speaks of North Carolina's disposable income isn't growing at the national rate, and that something that we see as legislators, as trying to adjust policies in estate to increase disposable income for North Carolina citizens, to help revive our economy, because if they have more money they have more money for spending, buying investing and everyone benefits, and so that's why we are up here every day Just trying to find out how to make laws better for North Carolina citizens and we have an artificial barrier put in place everyone especially jobs producers it really slows down our economy Representative Hega Thank you, you know of us in this room can walk out of here and go 30 minutes through the way and still not understand what I see in my district every time I go home on the weekends. When I got elected I had a neighbor 18.2% unemployment right now it's little over I think between 7 and 8, maybe a little over 8. Average salary in Westford[sp?] county is right at $ 30, 000 now this thing all may not seem that big deal but if you look at key mode effect of what the policy like this does. All my constituents, and the fact that all the products made in North Carolina have this on them, all distributor buildings I go to have again on them, all the grocery stores at that particular product again has it down there and then the house where that product goes home to and that's part of because all government buildings, whether you're local, whether you're county or whether your state has this build into the product you buy everyday, several times it's built into the tax structure that we have that those people that in my district make $30, 000 you had to pay It's not just what folks see in their private bill home. It's the paid in their products several times over, it's in the taxes they have to pay to run their government, it's all that cumulative effect to the folks who can at least afford it, and I'll tell you if you look I described this one time at the reverse Robinhood scenario. You're basically taking from the poor and giving to the rich. Look at the folks that are running this economy, they see us strata solar lives in a $2 million house, that you pretty much can buy the whole town a resident for $2 million. That's really where we are O'Rieley. And of course the strange thing I found out about, he has no solar panels on that house. Dr. Ecklyn, there's room for solar. There's room for wind. You're a prominent advocate of these types of resources. They do create some jobs although, as Ryan mentioned, the offset are that there's larger losses in economic opportunity. So how do we make this right, how do we fix this issue? Thanks. My concern is very much consistent with what I've heard here up until now when we with the solar program that exists right now, one of the key questions that we have to ask ourselves is what's going to happen to power in the future and all we have to do is look around the country and look at California, they are the leader in power, if you're reading the newspaper, that's where they want us to go. Well, in California, the cost of power for industries, is 12 cents a kilowatt hour, in North Carolina, it's 6.5 cents kilowatt hour, we have half of what they are but that's where we're going, the important question, just supporting what these folks have said, the important question is what is the impact of that cost of power on our industry, I've just

spent five years working with the furniture industry in West and North Carolina, Robbinsville, Lenoir, Morganton, Hickory, Thomas Hill, places like that and I've seen what the departure of the furniture industry has done to these communities, it's horrible! and I've a daughter living [xx] and so, I've firsthand experience with that and the issue of trying to keep industry here is important, we all know about recruiting industry and the problem North Carolina has in bringing industry here. so we're hurt on the level keeping industry and recruiting industry you know when you think about industry, you're also thinking about jobs and as Jim Hunt used to say, it's all about jobs for North Carolinian's and that's why I'm here, I'm not here supporting any industry or any interest NCSA, the solar developers and I'm not against anybody, but I think we have to think about the folks and when industries leaves, the folks are hurt and hurt badly. The second thing I want to mention about economics is this the tax breaks, the East closed North Carolina. The state of North Carolina gathered 124 million last year okay. It's projected that this year it will cost us close to a billion that's 5% of our budget. And under those circumstances lets speak about the teachers, the roads or the infrastructure needs that we have so as well meaning as the solar folks are and what's been describe it in terms of the people who benefit, that's all true, but we do need to think about the folks and that's why we are here folks. Sure, sure. Dr. Ecklen mentioned the budget we are trying to really you guys are managing that issue a we speak, can you tell us how this fits into that and where you see where there are not we're not going to have progress on the moving the re-doable bill through. I think it's fairly evident and as Dr, Ecklen said and about hos it affects all the different economies of the state and as well we're trying to create a budget for one North Carolina we had to see the effects of the policies we have up here affect mainstream North Carolina, and why as Representative Heger mentioned that you can't go 30 minutes to see what he has in his hometown from here we had to try relate that to other members, other Representatives and Senators of exactly what we have and I just saw with Dr. Ecklen I've never met him before but I was always fascinated about his solar house and so appropriate to have that discussion about that house in this discussion because that house was created for North Carolina, with overhangs the way the house is filled, the direction of the house, and it just reminds me the solar facilities, they're not farms that take away farm lands or solar facilities, that house that [xx] design was designed and for our climate and what we have here in the solar panels we use in North Carolina are only as efficient as it would be in the Western United that's not our role, that's not what we do well, what we do well is to grow crops. Agriculture is our number industry and as chair of agriculture I know how big it is to North Carolina, and affects what revenue we generate for our budget, for our teachers, for our roads, and if we start messing with what we have which is this policy he's going to have long-term lasting effects in our budget that will put North Carolina down a road like we suffered general session. Thank you, Senator Proctor is certainly right what I believe in South [xx] is we order fund to call functions of government that's transportation, infrastructure, education, HHS, protecting our citizens and until we can fund those adequately which tax credits and grants and those things, take away from the ability to do that until we can fund those adequately we should not be in business to keep other business up. If you look the long list of things, we have a higher threshold contract for qualified facilities. We were the third highest in the United States, the only other one is think Oregon in California. We have an 80% property tax which hurts our local folks. We have a limit, I've only been able been about 25% of our renewable energy out of state which hurts our competitiveness, and reduces the cost, actually increases the cost of those renewable. We have a 6% goal right now well to go to 12.5%

we have a 30% federal tax credit, 35% state tax credit with appreciation you pretty pay your facility off in six years, we've got hold our folks when my folks in Tuscanny look at this, and they know the struggle in the tier one county where we've had almost 20% unemployment, and they look can say, "My gosh!, if you've been subsidized for eight years, and you think you have a business, you probably have a charity, instead of a business if you continue that to be subsidized", so the question is, are these businesses or are these charities, and are these employees really state employees, because that's what they've come down to, and that hurts our budget. All those put pressure on our budget so Ryan we talked a little bit about comparing states that have made good energy decisions in the wise use of the the energy makes in states instead of moved in the wrong direction, you've been found this across the country can you give us some highlights of kind of maybe give these guys a little, hey, you're not alone. There's some other states that have stopped seeing the value of getting back to a system that let's the market decide which energy choices are best and not necessarily picking winners and losers. Yes. One of the interesting things is as we started, as we've been working and it has become increasingly evident that this discussion is going on not just here in North Carolina it went on in Kansas a few months ago they pushed all the forward and some said they were Pierce requirement pushing the market back to the forefront like Doctor Colon said Is not about disliking renewables it's about letting the market actually work through what is actually going to succeed or higher we having the same discussion I can't think of a more appropriate state than Ohio and very actively engaged in trying to work through this, they're saying the same sort of things that are going on here. West Virginia, Colorado is having these discussions. I got a call a couple of weeks ago from a representative in the Pennsylvania where legislature wanting to start these same sorts of discussions. This is happening across a wide variety of places and for a lot of reasons goes back to one of the things that Dr. Arckland pointed to which is, that it has an impact on industry. One of the things we found was that the growth of industrial purchase of electricity which is a key marker of economic activity. In states that adopt an RPS, it's grown 14% less than states that haven't. And so the sort of antidotal thing that you're seeing and Representative and Senator you're saying, is backed up by the reality on the ground to the numbers it's having a real effect on mainstreet it stifles that ability to grow. Ryan any thoughts about that. Well I appreciate the view point of everyone here, and I think all these points were really, really good, but to me it gets back to the point of and I don't want to be one to mention on this thing but it gets back to the point that this industry obviously is so heavily subsidized that they can go pay these astronomical process for land then and like you say, depreciate it all out and be done with it in 60 years and it's just many, many free to rest away. It's just man [sp] bargain, it really is, somewhere we've gotten off the track I think. So representative Hager you talked a little bit about getting back to North Carolina interview policy, something that makes sense for the State. What is your vision for that? My, just a plug here, my vision for that is to really just let the market work because we tend to think that the evidence shows that produces the best result for consumers and just to add real quick, we're talking about the trade off with respect to the environment and I don't see the trade off. for example in this country we've seen a dramatic decrease in CO2 emissions and a lot of that has to do with, unfortunately some of the economic realities, but also the fact that we've been using more cleaner sources of energy in the market place so I don't see the sort of either all situation with respect to this issue. Thanks for the question I think part of background I didn't give when I first started is that we do have a clean engine from that other engineering university Charet   [xx] so, others two good ones, at least two good ones, four through four going in the state, did make energy for almost 20 years for outsiders in politics which I question that about everyday, but I think you're right, what we need and I don't think any state has done exceptionally successful yet must develop a long term energy plan we don't have a free market and a regular utility like we've in North Carolina. How do we get there? How do we instill competition? How do we drive we drive down energy prices? how do we achieve a goal of being selling the lower quota of energy services prices in United States, how do we do that? I don't know if anybody is unsuccessful as they're I'd love to see it, but that has been one of the most exciting pieces

of the latest legislation in senate now, that has a piece in there for a long term energy plan for all the stakeholders to come together, try to figure out what the future looks like for North Carolina. So, senator, instead of picking energy winners and losers as you mentioned the solar house that was designed specifically for the state and maximizing the [xx] so you envision a world where without the subsidies, prop ups, the mandates that you'd have these competing energy sources, sort of finding their appropriate niche in the market place and actually learning to cohabitate with the farmers and other communities. That's right, I think with North Carolina, our base in manufacturing and agriculture, we're going to try the market which is the corporations to businesses, the family channel North Carolina want to have a safe, clean reliable source of energy and that's the key component, if it's reliable, then we can depend upon it to deliver when we need to. Watching the energy consumption on a minute to minute basis, you can see where you've got to have something that's reliable they can produce, because if it's not there, you just can't shut the factory down, you just can't say we're not going to run air conditioning this afternoon because it's cloudy, you've got to have something that's reliable, and when you have that reliability corporations no mater where they are, that's what you want, you want has some type of long term aspect so that you can plan ahead, because this is not a quarter by quarter, even a year by year process, instead you're looking for a long term plan and when you have that, and you can count on it, and bank on it, then you can make the appropriate changes in your corporation to what you need to do for expansion and hire more people, but when you have something that looks like it may increase your cost, well, you may floss somewhere else. and in this world is now flat, they can pick up and move to another nation in a moment's notice. So that's why we have to be better in every aspect here in North Carolina not only keep the jobs we have, but also grow and attract more companies to move here. Ryan can we get back to the economics a little bit? Sure and talk in English for me, because I'm a little tough on the trade offs and everything else?  I'll do my best. Give me a scenario where people say well, these things create jobs and they are creating economic opportunities in farm countries and other places. Tell me about these lost economic opportunities stuff and how and draw down on sought of what percentage of our income go toward energy? Yes I think one of the things that are often difficult for an economist or someone with sought of my background where I love the numbers is to link it to fact that when you pick a winner or a looser in a market place what you end up doing is you forego a whole bunch of other opportunities as economist call that an opportunity cost. But it just means that if you choose to have an APS and a force purchasing from one sector over another there are things you cant then do without money especially when we know the renewable on average cost more at the moment partly why the subsidies have been necessary and its in that lost opportunity and that money that you can't spend elsewhere, that you lose the potential for growth, and that tends to be where a lot of the negatives come in. It's not that there aren't jobs associated with solar facilities although they're relatively few, it's not that there aren't jobs on a wind farm, although they're relatively few, it's in that lost opportunity that you can't do other things with it, you can't put those resources to the most productive use and at the end of the day what you end up with is a situation where those going off opportunities end up costing North Carolina tax payers and families something like $3800 a year. What about the neighboring states and observe the flow of competition and everything else that's a factor as well right? Yeah, North Carolina doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are lots of other opportunities around the country and in fact around the world that as you make policy decisions here in North Carolina, industry has lots of options. And as you raise the cost of industry will flow the place with lower cost. It's partly why for a long time North Carolina was such an attractive place because the California have very expensive electricity, they've made poilicy choices that have driven up that cost and pushed industry to be frank out of California. Dr. Ecklen you had a very passionate defense of helping make sure that the folks have the best opportunity as possible. Can they co-exist? Do we need these subsidies and mandates?

Is there a market for solar, wind and these other renewables without these set-asides and these mandates and and prop ups? Well, I think when you talk about solar there are a lot of options people have. You could have incorporate that in your house for heating, that's going CO2, excuse me, reduce the cost of oil and gas. So I think there all have options but we have to recognize that [xx]. Hold the button down for us. Thanks. Okay, thank you. I think when you listen to Senator Brook and Representative Fegan talking about a plan for the future, I think one of the things we have to recognize is what does solar offer us and often in the media we don't hear that. For example solar is intermittent, solar provides us electrical energy on average 5 hours a day, that's never discussed, so a lot of people across the state and across the country don't realize the limitations that we have so as to look to the future we have to recognize limitations that solar imposes us, not because we're against solar but mother nature is tough master and we have to pay attention to what she provides us, so we have to understand that and the citizens need understand that's very misleading, not far, not long ago the City of Asheville has some problems with their coal plant and then some Ciara club people said, why don't we just shut that down and put in a solo firm to take care of that, that indicates to all of us the ignorance that exists out there, not that I'm against Ciara club people or not. I used to be a member of, but that's its education and thinking to the future. The other thing I want to say about sustainability is quite important and that is sustainability is used as a marketing tool for solo folks, by the solo folks okay, then if you look and they're looking at trying to lease land, they are not buying, I was in Lauenberg a few months ago and I asked my colleague there, I said well what are they paying to lease this land, he said $400-750 an acre I said what does it cost to buy an acre, he said between $ 50-2500 okay, and I said to him well my gosh they're paying lease that $ 700 for 20 years, why don't they just buy the land? The truth is, these folks aren't interested in sustainability. Okay if they were, they will buy the land, because once the panes were out there they put new panels in, we don't hear that and that's a big issue. The sustainability is a reuse that it's a marketing tool and nothing more, again this is an area where people have to understand, the citizens have to understand this. It's a critical issue, thank you. Sure senator. So Dr. Ecklen mentioned the future and so I turned over to the representative and senator. What is the prospect of getting over the finish line on this particular piece of legislation, what can we do to help we're already doing. Representative Heger said it is in my quarters and our chamber now. and I think you should the contact you're elected officials and as most people see the impact of what is stored in their household incomes when people are sitting around the kitchen table, trying to balance the cheque book, and they see the cost of product are buying are going up, the cost of living is going up because of this they ask questions why, and they kind of like the ignorance of the when they said bit a solar farm, when they understand that it only generates five hours a day and if the clouds go over then it's down to 2% effectiveness there's a problem there, there's a big problem because we have to have that sustainable energy and a reliable rate that I think when they get that and catch onto it, they need to contact their elected officials and as president Reagan said, if they can't see the light, make them feel the heat and in a real town set we're sick and tired of paying higher prices, we're sick and tired of our disposable income become less and less because of about this added cost and to get a hold of their officials and tell them to pass this bill and to make sure we get through so that North Carolina can remain and we can still continue to create and grow jobs here. And I have to say Senator

Brock has been a worth for these issues. He's been my counterpart over in the Senate and he's done a fantastic job. We passed [xx] the finest piece of legislation [xx] left the house Brock and it's [xx], I think they are discussing and it may move but we'll challenge folks. If we are looking at where the State needs to go. Look at all the other States, all the other countries around the world, and find me a place where we've implemented solar energy, wind energy, green energy policies and the price of electricity actually went down. All was what we are right now. You don' see it in California, you don't see it in Oregon, you don't see it in New Jersey you don't see it in New York, you don't see it in Germany, you don't see it in Spain, you don't see it anywhere. It doesn't exist. So, we are attempting to do something with Senate Bill three in 2007 that has never been done before, that some would argue it's against physics. So that's the challenge I put out to everybody, if you really truly want to see the best for North Carolina's. If you truly want to see the economy boom in North Carolina, then we've got to reduce energy price [xx] and show me a place where this has happened. And we can move forward. And we'll take that example and we'll implement it. But I can't find it. That's a nice powerful close there, but I will offer everyone a chance to put some final words and actually wrap up up a little bit early so that everyone can move on with their day. Back to [xx] Thank you Ronnie. I think I'd like to mention one other issue which hasn't been discussed much in the solar farm area, and that is decomissioning okay. If in Ronis area in Sampson's county, if he wants to reclaim this land after the solar farm has worn out okay. Attention has to be paid to decommissioning, how that equipment is going to be removed and the land returned to its regional state. That's something that hasn't really been given very much attention at all, and we need to point that out to the folks again so much of what we're doing here has to do with the folks. They are the ones that are going to have to live with it and as part of that, we have to do a better job of educating the folks. Decommissioning as one thing again that's generally been left off the table when we're dealing with the solar developers and we need to push them on that. Thank you. Thank you. Representative Heger mentioned something about back to 2007, and back that time, I think our senator from Marrier, Senator Alberson, was working on a deal to be able to dispose of livestock waste. We were trying to build a plant in Sampson County that would burn poultry litter. The problem being ofcourse, power or [xx] would not buy the electricity that was generated even though this had a successfully plan operating in Minnesota and one in operating in England, but we never could get that done so this is really grow up like a lot of these came from and it started off as a way to kind of dispose of animal waste, which is we all know we have plenty all down nation North Carolina and we don't deny that. An excellent barbecue to boot. Yes sir, you get one, you get the other, but in any advance somewhere solar hijacked the train that we were on they literally taken over and drive the whole thing so now you hear very little about the last start potion of this thing which is really critical and I think it could be used a lot, thank you. Thank you, Ryan. Yes, I think as we talk about this entire thing, there's a couple of numbers I think that are essential, that we end with, and that is goes right to the Dr. Ecklen's point, that is these sort of policies have real effects on to real people. For North Carolina families that's effective, about $3, 800 and almost 24, 000 jobs, not insignificant cost, and too often in the these sorts of discussions will lose sight of the fact that there are actually repercussions to these sorts of policies and we focus only on want the world to be rather than what the actual costs really are. Thank you and I'll let the two champions of this effort close out and actually I reserve my right to thank everybody as well. The much has been made of Senate bill 3 in 2007 and I voted for the bill and the reason why Roney was that for what it could do with agricultural waste, make something up and also there was a couple of lines in there that were to me is what sold me on the bill to increase for base load energy through allegro reactors and what we can do to help that along because to me I see that as a future in North Carolina of creating a better base load the you're right, always taken over, and its great[sp?]

a pleasant field and Sente bill three had a lot of intentions, and this has been taken over and became the poison pill on that legislation is [xx]. We decommission these sites of what we have to do for the clean up and to make sure that this land is usable again for agriculture because we are to increase food supply and what we grow here in North Carolina not only just to feed us but to feed the world, and if we're loosing valuable farm land now and if he comes off the books after the decommissioning where we can't use it because of the problems that it will create we are really, really putting our children and grandchildren at risk about a future food supply. If you turn the bottom environmental concern, so we've had that recently and other areas in the States, so really impacts us now and I think North Carolina needs to have a better long plan the bill will do that, and not only for creation of energy but also ho we dispose of what we have now and also look at, what do we do here in our state to continue to grow and create jobs for North Carolinian's. Thank you. thank you very much. You know as we've been on this senate block and I've been doing for four or five years now working together trying to figure out how to stop the effects of these policies. You may realize how effective policies are in North Carolina which you get in in mandate like is it's very hard to unwind. And we can remember the numbers Doc Declan[sp?] [xx] senator Brock are very good with numbers, less than 20% availability factor is not [xx] all these things but at the end of the day, I come from a tier one district where people struggle to pay their house bill, they struggle to send their kids to a good school, they struggle to go out and eat one time a week if they get the money to do it. You know, when you can't find work, not a lot of stuff really matters past that. And the struggle to pay their power bills they struggle about the product like it takes the speed that is made in north Carolina they get hit at the manufacture, they get hit at the distributor, they get hit at the at the grocery store gets hit again when he gets home plus all the taxes on top of that for all those folks. Our folks struggle and anytime we can help minimize that cost of doing business in North Carolina, minimizing their experience and be able to get their kids to good schools. We are going to put more money for teachers, we are going to put more money for state employees and build schools and roads and not take out of pocket and do this reserve Robin hood for us the better of we are as north Carolinians and I think that is what Senator Bock not going to struggle is that working class family that we can help them live better and that's the dream for all of us is to get our folks in North Carolina live better, minimize the cost of doing business and let them be successful. Thank you so much and I do want to thank everyone for joining us, thanks for allowing to come and spend a little bit of time with you, this is such an important issue for not only North Carolina but the entire country. Energy is in everything and the thing that has made America so great for so long in part is because we have been able to provide low cost, affordable and reliable energy to power our economy is and move our families along so really important issue, really appreciate your time and look forward for being back again with you soon, so thank you all for joining me.