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Joint | June 17, 2015 | Press Room | Press Conference: David Heinen, NC Center for Nonprofits

Full MP3 Audio File

Good morning. I'm David Hanin, Vice President for Public Policy and Advocacy for North Carolina Centre for Non Profit, thank you for joining us here today. The purpose of this press conference, is to provide a perspective from a variety of non profits on the ways for the Senate's tax plan can make it harder to the organizations to effectively and efficiently provide services in their communities. You'll hear today from Shoree Vodika, from the North Carolina alliance of YMCAs. The reverend Joe Mad,  of the United Methodist church, Mary and Orlean of Cape Valley house system, Cathy Baily of  Carolina's Health Care System Blue Ridge, Jim Roberts of Cambry University and Brit Davis of Cambry University. Please hold your questions until the end. The North Carolina Center for non-profits advocates on behalf of more than the 10, 000 charitable non-profits, that serve all 100 counties in North Carolina. We're concerned that the Senate tax plan would harm communities across the state, by taking away already limited resources from non profits to provide essential services for every citizen of our state. The proposed changes will create new taxes for some nonprofits, and would really limit tax incentives for North Carolinians to make sure there were contributions. These tax changes would mean that fewer North Carolinians to be served by nonprofits, and would it increase the demand for government services. Nonprofits enhance people's lives by helping struggling families meet basic needs like food, housing, healthcare, education, and childcare. Nonprofits also improve the quality of life for all North Carolinians by providing jobs training, art and culture, youth programs and safe clean communities. Regardless of their size and complexity [xx] non profit are fundamentally different from for profit [xx] organizations operate permission to benefit hit the public and no one own the none profit, well financially sound non profit often have more revenue than inexpensive will required by law to invest all [xx] back to our missions. North Carolina none profit still be affected by the tax plan include hospitals, independent colleges and universities, churches, retirement communities, food banks, land trusts, art organization YMCAs, boys and girls clubs in other ways inhabitant for humanity just to name a few. One of the major changes that the Senate proposes is a new tax and many nonprofit. Under current law almost all 501 see three nonprofit so eligible for semiannual refunds of all of the sales tax that they pay on the their purchases. The senate frame would limit the amount of refunds so nonprofit can receive and would only allow nonprofits to apply for the increase fund once a year, meaning that charity will lend their private money to the state for 12 months instead of the 6 months that they already do. The capital refunds will face under $1 million by 2020, and it's faced it may seem like this tax increase would only affect the largest nonprofits in the state. In fact you would have a significant effect on the entire, nonprofit sector and on our communities. The cap on sales tax refund would mean the churches, colleges, YMCA's and other non-profits, we need to re-think their future building projects meaning less spending with local businesses. Also as none profit increasingly collaborate on programs and services, new taxes on large non-profit institutions, could jeopardize the work of smaller organisations that are partnering with them and their communities. The senate tax fund would also deter private giving to nonprofit. Two years ago state legislature Wesley shows to allow North Carolinian's to deduct the full amount of their charitable deductions on the state taxes, including the charitable deductions in a $20, 000 cap on itemized deductions which will be barely higher than the standard deduction, the Senate plan would nearly eliminate any tax incentive for charitable giving at the state level. North Carolinians give nearly $6 billion a year in tax deductible contribution to nonprofits, many of this contributions will be lost or reduced to tax incentives for charitable giving a limit this is the kind of giving that would mean that north carolina [xx] will the basic needs collectively this supposed tax [xx]. It would be particularly damaging to our communities [xx] is already struggling to meet needs. Last year for example, 78% of North Carolina non saw an increase and demand for services, and 60% were unable to fully meet needs. And the half of the entire non-profit sector, we urged the general assembly not to adopt policies that make it harder for private nonprofits to serve North Carolina's communities. Now I'd like to introduce representative David Lewis. Thank you for being here today, I'll be very brief.

I said before many of you before and we've talked about our continuing efforts of tax reform and how we hope to get to a better place and how we administer our tax code. With that said, it was a house priority and the last round of tax cuts and it remains a house priority to recognize the value that nonprofits provide in each and everyone of our communities. We believe that the services that they provide often must more officially than government and provider are needed and with that said, the house does look forward to working with the senate on many other proposals that they put forward. At this time, we're committed to maintaing the unlimited charitable deduction and we're very concerned with any adjustment to the sales tag through fund care as many of these that are going to speak to you today will point out when you tax non profits don't return the sales tax that they pay, you are essentially increasing their burden to raise more money to offset that to provide the same level of services in our communities that I've already said we believe that often provided much more efficiently than the government can provide them. so, with that said, just know that we understand that this is a process that each chamber speaks with it's list the priorities the things are important to it, and how it looks forward to engaging with the senate to advance many of the ideas they have put forward. we do believe they'll put forward in good spirit, and in good faith in what is a good faith attempt to continue our tax reform. The issue of coping chairing contributions and the issue of changing the source refund is one of great concern to the house and we will work had to bring her back continue for our citizens this is a major stumbling block between the House position and the Senate. And now we'll hear from Sheree Vodicka of the YMCAs. Thank you all so much for being here my name is Sheree Vodicka and I'm the Executive Director of the North Carolina Alliance of YMCAs, that is a coalition of 27 YMCA's Associations, all of our YMCA's across the state, so I thank you again for being here. The state's of YMCAs are very concerned about the provision of the budget that David so nicely outlined so I won't repeat that, but I will just say that is very concerning to us because it will harm our ability to do what we do which strengthen communities through youth development, healthy living, and social responsibility. Our states YMCAs serve nearly a million of our residence in 119 facilities, in 3/4 of our state counties so we're statewide and our facilities can be found our largest most urban cities and also in our most rural and smallest town and counties. The tax package that's been proposed will result in a roughly 1 million dollar cap by the year 2020 which will in fact directly impact our largest YMCAs in the state. In addition the limiting of the deductibility of the charitable contributions will, as you've heard, affect our ability to raise important revenue that helps us to meet those community needs that we do on a day in and day out basis. So, it will not only indirectly impact us immediately because of the partnerships that we have with hospitals health care system and universities, but it will also directly impact us down the road. I wanted to share with you a little bit about how the YMCAs in North Carolina do partner with hospitals and health care systems because you know North Carolina's wise provide over 20 $2 million in financial assistance to the people of North Carolina who access our services and our facilities around the state and up to 40% of our program [xx] receives some kind of financial assistance, so no one is turned away from the wise programs or services for inability to pay. What that financial assistance looks like around the state is free swimming lessons that prevent child drowning, free meals for hungry kids in our after school and summer Learning Loss Programs, and also helping

educate adults and children about healthy lifestyles so that they can prevent chronic disease. So in order for us to deliver these high quality programs around the state, we have formal and informal partnerships with hospital healthcare systems and universities. Now I just want to share with you a few of those, 64% of our wise in North Carolina have partnerships with hospital systems. So as an example here in Wake County, the YMCA of the Triangle which reaches seven counties has a partnership with WakeMed. And through that partnership, the WakeMed and the YMCA come together and offer programs such as healthy in these days, which teaches Bowican families how to eat healthy be more physically active. And we also partner with them to deliver a program called Energize, which has a diabetes prevention program for young kids and their families. Over in Winston-Salem the YMCA of Northwest North Carolina has partnership with Brenner Children Hospital and the hospital's Brenner fit programs. Brenner Fit funded the construction of a teaching kitchen in the William G White, Jr. Family YMCA in Winston Salem and out of the place where families can come who not only are hospital patients, but also from the community and Y family members to learn how to learn how to prepare healthy meals for their families that will help prevent chronic disease down the line. And many of the families who participate in this program are low in families and they're struggling and they would not be able to have access to this kind of assistance without the benefit of hospitals and and YMCA is working together. Additionally the YMCA of North West North Carolina branches have served as site for research conducted by Wake Forest University and Baptist Hospital. So we researches and study. What works well to help families reach their wellness goals and that information is learned from that research is shared not only with wise so that we can infer programs that that research as you know is published, and helps people worldwide. Over in Western North Carolina in the Asheville area are YMCA Western North Carolina has with Missions Health Systems, Carolina's healthcare and Blue Ridge Community Health Services to deliver a variety of population health services such as the YMCA's diabetes prevention program, again these low effective programs would be in jeopardy if all of these nonprofits are taxed so these partnerships with hospitals empower the Y to lead efforts for healthier North Carolina. Their role is vital in our efforts to meet our mision which is to strengthen communities and make them all healthier. Ultimately I am asking that we find a way to do what we would like to do with tax reform without jeopardising these very critical services are provided to all the families all across the State. Our nonprofits are working harder and harder with fewer and fewer resources to meet greater demands as David outlined in reducing our ability to gain revenue through charitable giving is also going to be a double whammy to the nonprofits in the state. So it's my hope that non-profit collective wise all across the state will not be stripped of their ability to do the very thing they exist to do, a nd that is to provide programs and services that maximize community benefit and public goods for all of our residents. Thank you. Thank you I know that Representative Doffes and Representative Sock need to head off to committee and so they wanted to send the thing there's a great chance to complete that. Thank you so much, thank you for the opportunity to be here. My name is representative Josh Dobson, I represent [xx] county in the Western part of the state. We're struggling, geographically we're struggling, economically, we're struggling in a lot of ways place, but we have some things that we're doing well in Western North Carolina, providing private education, YMCAs which have already been eloquently spoken about, and our rural hospitals are things that we're moving in the right direction and things that we're doing well. All of these things are affected long term are some of the proposals that are out there. I view it as my role, and as a rule legislator to preserve and protect the things that we're doing well, and as I said rural hospitals, private education, and the local YMCAs and other non profits across Western North Carolina we're doing a great job to areas of the state that are less fortunate. We need to preserve and protect, and I look forward to representative Louise and some of the others have said, looking forward to working with the senate, working with our other house members to make sure that we do that, thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is John [xx] I represent part of Camplin county, I'm not going to repeat everything that David Louise and representative Dabson said because I agree all heartedly We understand the intent

for the senate, and I personally I'm committed to further test perform. Now, the question is. Is this the best way to accomplish part of that? My personal belief is that this is not the best way to accomplish that. The're parts of the senates finance package which I agree with, this is not one of them, forward to having an open and frank date with the senate about this, I encourage each one of you whose is presented today, and those of you who may be watching to get contact with your senators and your representatives, let them know where you stand on this issue, Thank you. Thank you both. I'm John Mayer and I'm a Methodist minister and I'm glad to represent churches and religious organisations in the state and let me just begin by reminding all us that churches are a part of the non for profit rule philanthropy, as a matter of fact, churches have historically been the beginners of the social network that is cared for many of our citizens since the beginning of this country of the state, churches were the beginners of education colleges, hospitals, orphanages, care for widows and care for the indigents. The array of those services and the ways in which we provide the services has changed over the years, but today in 2015, our churches are still a very important part of every community. Rural and urban, for providing services to some of the neediest people and the people, and the people who are following through the net services and need. So this idea to lower the tax, refund and to lower charitable deductions and not to exclude charitable reductions, has a profound effect on churches and their ability to offer this services in the community. Churches depend so much on a return of tax, sales taxes on many of the services they provide for instance a child care program realize so much on the food that they offer, and they purchase, getting a tax back. They also depend intimately on donation, and so reduction exclusion of donation will have a profound effect, let me just offer maybe three quick examples of what I mean, I'm on the board for the motherless children home. Today and everyday we offer services to 1400 children and families, 1400 of the most at risk children and families in the state. If we don't get back the state taxes that we have paid, we don't get those back, we will have to exclude children and families that we would seek to serve. And secondly, we just depend on donations to be able to provide those services it's just so crucial to us individuals who care, and the fact that they can get a charitable deduction has a profound defect on our ability to serve. I have also worked with Childcare programs throughout the State for most of my career our childcare programs have no margin. They exist almost solely on the donations of folks in churches who want to support them, and they also depend so much on getting it back again that tax refund on the educational materials they bought, the food they bought. Finally, churches are in the state are often in need of more facilities. They need to build, to provide services, almost no church provide services just for themselves, they're providing services for the larger communities not that most churches in religious organizations are central to the life of communities. Not to be able to get back to the self-tax will profoundly affect construction, you simply you won't be able to build as big or as effectively or as efficiently. And in some instance we'll simply not be able to build and again if you don't get back a charitable deduction then that's going to hurt church building and the ability for them to serve. So that may conclude by are saying, as a clergy I can say this, well I pray that our elected officials will demonstrate compassion for our fellow North Carolinians who need food, clothing and shelter, and the many nonprofit organizations that provide this support. Subjecting charities, which include churches, to a greater tax burden will hamper our ability to serve our communities and create holes in the safety net that we've built across the State. Thank you for your attention. Good morning everyone.

I am Marion Olion. I am the Chair of the Board of Trustees for Cape Fear Valley Health system, and I'm very glad to come to you today to talk to you about the impact of lowering the sales tax refund on our health system. First let me give you a little background about Cape Fear Valley Health System. Our focus is on improving access to health care and ensuring the incidents in the communities we serve are able to have high quality healthcare close to home. Our community hospitals in Hoke county, Harnett county and Bladen county are all predominantly rural areas. Our largest hospital, the Cape Fear Valley Medical Center, is both the tier care hospital, a safety net hospital, it's also a trauma center. It's emergency department is one of the busiest in the State, and one of the busiest in the Nation serving 130, 000 patients visits each year. Many of those patients lack health care insurance, and have nowhere else to go when they're sick. Cape Fear Valley Medical Center also has a level four neonatal Intensive Care Unit, the highest level of care available for those babies in our six region counties 6 county region I should say, who were born up to 3 months before their due date. These babies are in need of critical care in order to save them, but this care comes at a cost. The cost of care for babies weighing less than two pounds is upwards of a quarter million dollars. Insurance pays for only a fraction of this cost, the rest is usually unreimbursed. But you can't put a price on the life of a precious child. The parents of these children who begin their lives in an e-cube[sp?] would say that their hospitals earn much more than the exemptions that they receive each year, and they'd be right. Eliminating the sales tax refund would cost Cape Fear Valley Health System millions of dollars per year. At it's full implementation, the tax refund could cost us up to quarters of our bottom line at Cape Fear Valley Hospital. Cape Fear Valley invest in the community to extend its services in it's [xx] county but also hope in the [xx] counties where we are able to help financially ailing hospitals such as those in Honnet county and to add more beds to our own main Cape Fear valley medical center. So that we can meet the needs of our hospitalized patients waiting for hours in the emergency room for a bed. Our state sales tax refund is a lot of money for us but if everyone were able to pay their bills in full I wouldn't have to be here today. My fellow board members and I wouldn't be struggling to balance the budget before the start of each year if everyone were able to pay for the services they receive. I don't need my time to Cape Fear Valley Board of Trustees on which I've served for the past 6 years because I believe in the value of hospitals in our local communities. Hospitals are here to patch us up when we have of a serious automobile accident. They are here to save our tiny babies when they decide to come into the world too soon and they are here to save us when we've had a heart attack or a stroke. Our hospitals even help us know what to do through announcements and health education when we think we've had a stroke. Eliminating a sales tax would harm communities all across the state it would cripple many hospitals like ours that server large numbers of uninsured and underinsured patients. Far from being a burden on our communities, Cape Fear Valley invests more than $12.5 million a year to provide emergency medical services to Cumberland County without tax subsidies. We are proud of our nationally accredited EMS system, and we feel it provides exceptional

services ot our residents. But like the emergency department EMS is not a money making service. We're able to provide it in part because of our tax exempt status. We earn our tax exemption everyday an cost for care add up to approximately $42 million every year that's six times the amount of our sales tax refunds. Programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and TRICARE have below the cost of care, and unlike other businesses that can increase their rates to off set any loss of tax exempts status Cape Fear Valley Hospital must absorb those losses, potentially cutting services or jobs. I urge you to retain the tax refunds, sales tax refunds perhaps bill is without reductions. Only then we be sure that we'll have all the resources to respond to the needs of our community. Thank you again for allowing me to address this issue with you today, and I hope you can tell that I am passionate about community hospitals, and urge you to do all that you can to continue to allow us to operate, by continuing to allow us to receive our tax refund. Thank you. Good morning and thank you coming here today and for support our states non profit. My name is Cathy I am the President and CEO of Carolinas HealthCare System-Blue Ridge located in Burke County. Carolinas HealthCare System-Blue Ridge is the largest employer in Burke County with more than 1800 employees, and we are an economic driver in recruiting and retaining businesses in that area. I'm here today to discuss the harm that will come to nonprofits if the Senate tax plan is enacted, particularly small hospitals like ours that are dependent on large hospital systems that will support the essential services that we provide to our communities. As with the other non profits, we're concerned that the Senate Tax Package will diminish our ability to provide a full range of critical services to the people in our community, and across our state. I am very proud of the many contributions that our healthcare system makes to our local community, not only do we remain on standby 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to respond to emergencies and to safeguard the health of everyone in our communities we also give back in countless ways. The relationship with Carolina's healthcare system, we are able to create a healthier environment for school children within our county by funding six of the 12 school nurse physicians to serve the counties 13000 student. Together with our physician partners, we provide sports physicals to more than 1600 students athletes every year, and going beyond our walls, we provide an average of 7500 screenings to community members every year within our community. We're providing screenings for cholesterol, and blood glucose have changed the course of some people's lives, but our primary community benefit is access to care for those in need. Residence of Burke county like many through all communities in our state struggle with unemployment. Blue ridge provided care to over 7500 charity patient in 2013. These were individuals who could not pay for their care and did not qualify for state or federal assistance, but they do depend on us Carolina's healthcare system blue ridge to be their healthcare safe demand. The actual cost of taking care of charity patients was just $25 million in 2014, and we received no outside funding to offset that cost. Despite recent comments from legislators targeting larger non-profit sales tax refunds will not protect smaller organisation, in Carolina's health care system it's an example of that. By taxing the large non-profit health systems the local non-profit partners and the smaller affiliate hospitals budget cuts that may lead to a decrease in services offered, job loss and ultimately affecting our ability to serve our community it also

impacts our ability to provide important community benefits like free health screenings, health career training and support for other local non profit groups. Our health care system is invested in our community. It is our home, and we are friends and neighbours taking care of friends and neighbours. I urge our elected officials to recognize the value that non-profit organisations provide in our state, and to recognize the potential long term impact, of a short sighted tax fix, thank you.  Good morning. Thank you for letting us be here today and support the states for non-profits. I'm Jim Roberts, I'm the Vice President for business and university treasurer Campbell University. For those of you who don't know, Campbell University is located 35 miles south of where we are right now and Campbell University is the largest private employer in Harnett County. we enroll 4200 undergraduates and over 2000 graduates students. We have professional programs in law, pharmacy, medicine and we have worked hard to grow our institution. We provide service to our community, we provide service to citizens of North Carolina and we provide economic development. Among the 36 private college university in the state of North Carolina, Campbell University has more North Carolinians attending its institution than any of the other private. Today I want to speak to you about why the senate tax proposal the plan they have concerns me for future of the independent culture universities, speaking on behalf of them this new tax proposal comes at a time where there is significant economice stress on everyone, if the impose the tax on the sales tax for us in the non profit sector the impact is real and to the private education of more than 90, 000 students that attend these 36 institution. Lets have a tax change affects Campbell University, refunds are a major part of the funds that we need to add programs for the education of these North Carolina students, camble is added in the last two years, a medical school, a nursing school, a doctor physical therapy program and in the next year we will be adding a school of engineering. These programs take money to start, open, operate and construct facilities each school was independent in these 36 institutions all were affected in the same ways where did the refund go? Back into the program for the students of North Carolina medicine, nursing, engineering, financial aid, new programs our mission is to educate students in the state of North Carolina. We have no stock overs, our mission is to work for the common good and provide education for those that need private education. Without this funding then we need to develop these programs will have to increase student fees, student tuition, and find ways to replace these needed funds. North Carolina's independent college universities are also acutely aware of the rising cost of education, and the difficult choices that families must make, because of this, several independent colleges are experiencing declines in enrollment. The young men and women who come to our colleges ready to study, and build a future, and be productive members of society, or the future of our state. They deserve every advantage we can provide, and they would inevitably pay back our investment over time. We are asking, that the senate reject this provision of the law. Thank you. cleanup persons up here, good morning everyone, is it still morning or are we in afternoon? Hi, I'm a proper service device president for institutional advancement and assistant to the president at Campbell University, I want to thank of my colleague [xx] for sharing some details about [xx] Today, I'd like to share my concerns on the senates proposed plan, tax plan in relation to charitable for Nonprofits such as Campbell and the other organizations represented here. Charitable donations are primary source of funding for all Nonprofits and are therefore critical to our livelihood and frankly our survival. Tax policy changed to the

charitable deduction will be harmful in taking away building blocks that support our communities and these organizations. The effects of the senate's tax plan would create additional cost that will ultimately be passed down to students and their families, speaking from the independent college side of things. Now Campbell University we're in New Hanover county, we have a number of programs and Mr. Roberts just outlined medicine and engineering and law and business and other things but we're not well here in the institution, you know we have 2 sources of income, student tuition and gifts, from friends and alumni, that's it and over 80% of our student body does come from North Carolina, and 50% of them receive federal program assistance. These are people who are looking for an opportunity. This were students who were the children of hardworking North Carolina families and we clearly do not want to place further financial challenges on them. Well we do receive some gifts from cooperation and foundations. The vast majority gifts that can be received comes from individuals, alumni, friends from the communities, friends across the states and region. Last year more than 4000 individuals made a gift to Cambridge university, this individuals need to be able to take full advantage of all itemized dedaction actions on their federal and state tax returns. It's as simple as that. They needed be able to deduct everything that they give away. We strongly believe capping automatized charitable deductions will be age deterrent, to charitable giving from North Carolina taxpayers. And what will this do, this will place a new burden on Campbell's ability to invest in new facilities and new programs such as medicine, nursing, engineering and in Campbell's case a sole mission to deliver these programs and the graduate these programs to the undeserved parts of our state. To ship them additional burden onto the stuents at Campbell University, a university that educates more North Carolinians than any other private college in the state and all of the 36 independent colleges and universities in the state just doesn't make sense for the families who simply want an opportunity to succeed. We talk a lot at Campbell about opportunity and I strongly believe that of the independent colleges and universities in this State that represent 90, 000 students that's exactly what they are all looking for, an opportunity. We don't need to put more financial burden on them. So we sincerely hope the leaders in the house and the senate will carefully consider their stand on charitable gift deductions and sales tax refunds for nonprofits and we thank the senators here for their consideration to reject the provisions that would limit sales tax refunds as well as charitable gift deductions, thank you. Hi, good afternoon State representative Jason saying I'm the finance chairman on the house side of things and these few quick statements and I have to believe in, but I appreciate everyone that you have heard today this is where we're at in the process, and it is a process, and we want to remind everyone that this is simply the conversation that is going on in the marketplace of ideas in the House and the Senate with that being said, honestly you've seen the House budget that we put forward in seeing what we're doing in terms of tax reform and The other thing said that we have made priorities from the House side. So we have some vast differences and I've kind of alluded to it in a couple of statements earlier that it's going to be a long Summer, and that's OK because we have lots to talk about, and we are prepared in the house to have the discussion to look at all the new answers that are coming out of the senate right now with the tax plan, but do you want to run [xx] the role of  nonprofits play in the state reduces the size of state of government, and as a conservative that's something I think is important, and they're very helpful layer that grow our economy, and improve the quality of life across the state, and this impacts every community across the state. So I can't state enough just how much impact this proposed plan would have. So it's something that we have to look much deeper into. The house is certainly going to take the proposal from the Senate, have a good vetting of what's out there, have this conversation, we want it to be a prolonged discussion to find out just exactly what tag maybe and we will make our decisions from the health side and find out what we have agreed on also what we have disagreed on, so that we can look forward to (xx) thanks but it is something that we are going to be doing from the outside. Kelvin, Browley and I met this morning as we start to digest from the finance committee side from the [xx] side of things, digest what has come to us as we look and as we watch the proceedings here with the senate, so that's where we are today

again it's not an opportunity to hit the (xx) burden is just an opportunity to have the discussion so I do appreciate the folks that told you. Currently what they see is the impact that will impact their organization non profits across the state and we think that's very important so thank you and I appreciate you being here today. Thank you Thank you Representative Stam and to all of our speakers today, you've hea rd thatthe non-profit sector is very united and the concerns about this supervisions and the senate tax fun. We didn't answer all of your questions feel free to ask them to any of us now [xx] has anybody been close to that? My understanding is that there are not any, even the largest nonprofit institutions are below that so currently no, there are no nonprofits that are paying sales tax because they exceed the and has it been talked about, a compromise level or are we thorough that one yet? back when I think within non profit sector we're certainly united in the belief that if you're taxing any non profit that it's a real concern for the entire sector and if other a few people who are this on nobody on the phone who has questions, you should be able to ask them and I think the power of technology will hear you. I think all the speakers did a wonderful job of preempting, [xx] answer all the question it's a good job for everybody. Thank you and we'll all be around here if you have other questions. Say again thank you to everybody for being here today.