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Senate | June 10, 2015 | Committee Room | Finance

Full MP3 Audio File

Clock on the wall says it's one o'clock. At Senate time, House time we don't worry about them. I would like to introduce our pages for today we've got several. Savannah Strickland from Mount Olive, Senator Pate, Victoria Parker Western Salem, Senator Clayward, Nathaniel Brooks from Riley, Senator Riley Alexander, you need to take this one after eight Jasmine [xx] from Greensboro, Senator Robinson Andrew, Grisim Hopemill, Senator Meredith, Cameron Rogers from Senator Brian, Claire Rebecca from Rollofied, Senator's Stan and Hakin Factor from Riley, Senator Stan, thank you Pages, you always do a good job and I know you'll learn well, and I hope you do I don't have a list with our Sergent At Arms thank you as always for setting up and keeping everything going in order and appreciate you ever so much. We have two bills on the docket today and we're going to start with the second one. This had to move to another committee I believe that is a senate bill 544 requirements based work force development. I believe Senator Rabin, Senator Curtis are going to tag came on this one Senator, who's first? Senator Curtis, floor is yours Thank you Mr. Chairman, this bill is the combination of a lot of work, a lot of people in State Government, we've had about six meetings for the past ten weeks and I'd like to thank the folks who participated in those meetings, we had people from the Department of Revenue, Department of Commerce Secretary of State and Office of State Budgeting Management, and also Ben and Mike helped a lot with it. What I'm going to do is give you an overall goal of this bill and then Senator Raven is going to go into some more details. Then we'll answer any questions that you have. This is a business registration bill, the end game is to have a web site where it's going to be a one stop shop for business registration to make it easier for new businesses to register, go to this site and have links to all the various state departments, and the secondary goal is to get all businesses in North Carolina registered. Right now some business entities like LOCs have to register, but sole proprietorship do not, and so the goal of this bill is to get everybody registered so we can find out who is actually doing business in North Carolina, and make sure everybody pays their fair share of taxes. Now this is going to take go through several steps to get to the end point. We hope to get it launched January one, 2017. So Senator Raven will give a few details then we'll answer your questions. Senator Curtis, just a moment please, now this is a PCS attached to this bill, we do have a motion from Senator Raven, that we include a PCS as part of the bill. Have a motion, any opposed motion, all in favor I. I. Any opposed. Alright, PCS before you. Thank you Senator Davis for warming up the audience for me. The pad is not on, there we go. I think it's well to put in to perspective that this based on the sheets that we handed out to you is really the start point of the amendmends information system, we are hoping the goal that will eventually facilitate, business and better cost effective government management the end game. The chart that we included shows, how long this will go right now, this bill focuses on simply the first face, which is the business registration face of the issue. The problem we're faced with, is that right now we have no state requirement, no state regulations regarding sol proprietorship and general partnership registrations. As a result we have some that register some that don't, some that pay taxes and some that don't. Which is sort of unfair burden on those that don't pay their taxes, don't pay the unemployment insurance, and so fourth. We are hoping that by getting a business friendly system implies where folk can easily register their business, and become part of the system, will solve that problem, and sort of tarjetiobly[sp] be able to recruit more

revenues with more people registered to do the text part. The bill was going to require that all sol proprietorships, and all general partnerships, to register, and if they don't register register, there will be penalties involved. Entities however that have less than $1000 a year.net business will make profits [xx] there will be exam from all this regulation that we're about to be entered. There's a non compliance penalty that's involved, in addition you have a registration fee, and then you have renewal fee penalties for late this are not too [xx] but for we non compliance with the bill and it provisions there is 1000 $10000 penalty that involved for people who just don't wan't to register don't want to be a part of the system they will pay their taxes. All the penalties today mentioned are revealable by with the statutes that will reveal the our board and will not be disturbed or imposed and not listen to some sought of rebel the registration requirement is under the Davis announce will begin on January 1st 2017 but in the mean time doing all kinds of messaging to let people know that this is coming make sure that they know how to do it, it will be and a lot of we put out the end of the plan and we are going to have an outreach program try to get the audience ready, the target ready confidential information that is submitted will be available but it would be take care of inside the current stature that protect confidential information and by agreement will the local government which may have some information, the secretary of the state will be able to provide paper the registration form for people for entity that do not have any kind of electronic means to register may be able to continue in the other way. The cost estimate for this bill for the 2015/16 is about the a million dollars, to get everything moving and enable the government, entities that are currently involved continue the work that they are doing, which has been outstanding up to this time. That's all I need to be talking to you about, if you have any question that we will gladly feel the moment we have the staff ready to help. And the good participants who helped put all the work for us together. And from other department who are here to also help. Thank you.   Thank you senator Wallace. At this point we will stop and see if there, questions from the committee, we go to the committee first.   Senator Raven. I just can't get used to not being  Y ou were a Colonel in the army I know That decision making that kills me everytime.  I don't want to hear from you we will. I thank you [xx] Thank you Senator Tillman. could you tell me, it sounds to me like we are going to have marketing expenses to get the word out. We're going to have IT expenses to build the new systems and then maybe some customer service personnel to handle all of the new business. How is that million dollars going to be allocated We're looking for that in the appropriations bill. Staff might be able to handle that question better than I'm just now what we're trying to work out right now is a million and then work into the program as it grows. If we could stop by cost, that may be an eventuality, but for right now, to get off the ground consider it such a good idea moving on that direction we think a million gets us started that's been agreed to by the other entities that are helping let's put the actual work together in moving forward I it it does include the initial here is what we are doing forks out their please participate part of it Thank you Alright I see over I have got the usual Senator Mckissick let's go with you first the Sen. [xx] and then back here with Daniel and Cook, I was just trying to get some idea do we have any idea and how many business might be required to obtain licences what kind of revenue that we might be getting in from this pool I guess we are covering those that are every type of business in

North Carolina other than one that's I guess the c core for something like that. The problem is been brought to our attention the magnitude might be known by the staff I'm not sure what it is but I'm now their are a couple kinds of revenue to look at one is the tax revenue the other is the licence revenue any revenue that come in by licence I know we are going to go 80% general fund and 10% to end man cost but I'm not sure about what we expect the increase to be with regard to revenue coming because we get more registrants by way of business can staff help on that or we may do the research Mr. Chairman Berry Bondman is to your right and he may be able to shed a little light on that onto my right Dr. Boardan[sp?] with fiscal research I could shed just a little light on it part of the problem is we don't require registration right now so the proprietors and so forth so it's really difficult to know how many if you were to start a record and a portal for that just how many you would have that would be involved we know that their are estimates that range from 600000 to 800000 businesses operating in North Carolina, we know that about 300000 of those are LLCs [xx] seek co-operations. How many of the sole proprietors is very difficult number and something like this actually would help us modify those numbers. Quick follow up Mr. Chair, if I could Follow up senator. Sure, and I guess it's kind of a two fold question and I've seen the effective [xx] wouldn't become effective to 2017 but what is anticipated is some sort of [xx] to get this soap operators and businesses out there to know they need to sign up and register, and is there anything they get in exchange for this other than us being able to conduct inaccurate senses to find out who we might better be able to collect taxes from in the first pages okay, there's no benefits for them except getting registered and we know they're paying their taxes further down the road it'll be much easier for businesses, not just to register but to help them get organized and get on the right track with regard to whatever kinds of SAIC code people they're using, what does that mean? How does it fit? What kind of a co-operation are we? Based down the road. In the first part we're planning right now for deal work to make announcements on what they send out to let people know in the future, this electronic system will be available okay and part of the cost that we just discussed is going to be used to further do that and talk to the stakeholders involved, all the government agencies turn all the CPAs and all of that out there so that they are very much aware that this system is coming and is going to be more benefit than it is harm to any body for sure thank you senator, Thank you we'll move on now, got anybody here that don't want to speak raise your hand. Okay I got a lot of you, thank you and I believe the next name out now that you're going to hear is senator Maguiness sir you're next. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Just for the sake of an example my aunt Susan bakes a few pies. And she sells those pies at the local place down and she generates more than $1000 a year and she set on her own federal return under scheduled seat and she is this is  going to require her to register and because she' already paid tax she' not escaping any taxes because you get scheduled seat o the state of federal return but we're going to hit her for $100 do all these things or am I missing something.  If she made just over 1000$.   1000$ or less is exempt from the system, we expect a registration will occur and then the tax guy comes both ways we both know that, there's federal and state, we're all subject to that. What will happen is if she makes the threshold that puts her into where she has to pay some sort of state tax once we can figure out what the arithmetic is, probably maybe, maybe not, depends on what gross income is and how many other deductions the 1000$ is the place we thought would be nominal for a home run business to be able to be exempt from State Law And follow up Mr. Chairman. I didn't get my notes written down appropriately on how

many people we think this is going to bring into the system, I heard 300, 000 LLCs but I missed the fiscal research guys number. How many people do we think this is going to bring into the system that are not paying taxes now, or is it how many people that are not registered now that we don't know are out there? I don't know is soft I know that Yes sir [xx] You got an answer Senator Richard has got answers I'd like to hear from you. Senator Maginess talking with the department and other people that I've been associated with it they were at one point roughly 44, 000 self relying tax payers, they had businesses in the side that file federal taxes but not State taxes The burden that Senator Ruben initially said was it it's not fair for them to enjoy North Carolina and all of what we offer and not pay their share and so that is a number that's been abandoned about.  Follow so you are saying 44 thousand and they're paying schedule C on their federal return right now but they're not paying State return on the bottom.  They don't even file it. Thank you, let's move on. We got several different figures out here and Doctor Bolman can provide any figures if you request them, let's move on. I believe I had Senator Daniel next over there. Thank you Mr. Chairman. First I would start by saying if we want to hit the honest-ness to North Carolina we are about to do it. You're talking about the $1000 threshold that's the grand mother that makes pies it's the Mum that bakes up cakes it's the 18 year old that most lines is now going to have to register with the secretary of state if they don't it's $1, 000 even if they are under the $100, 000 threshold the bill, I'll read it says that they've got to prove to the sector State that is under the $1000 threshold they don't have to file, I don't know that I could ever support this bill unless you are talking about raising the threshold to some reasonable level 2030 $50, 000 so I guess that's my comments I just think we are about to hit the hotestness thank you. Senator [xx] you had your hand up a while ago.  Thank you sir place it down, good, I am. Our emphasis since Republicans have come in charge, there's been jobs on the economy. Other than keeping records and get more tax revenue. How does this bill help us to encourage business to grow and prosper? The only answer I can make to that Senator, is we could say the same thing about any tax that we levy any kind of fee that we have for registering is basically across of doing business I don't think it this is anyway going to slow down the economic growth. If anything else in the end game the in the total system will help businesses get organized Moving on, I'm trying to get to everybody here. We going to get with the round that I've got here before me, now Senator Ford, Thank you Mr. Chairman I just want to ask a clarifying question for either the bill sponsors or for staff. I just want to make sure that this is not going to replace the previous license tax staff please. The privilege license tax was the local tax where the money went to the locals is not a local source of revenue, so it would not replacing the privilege tax Follow up Mr. Chairman, we're going to deal with that this session before we leave? While they're busy deal with the licence tax or this one? The previous licence tax Mr. Chairman we're going to deal with that before we leave. No sir we're not because I'm going to pull this Bill take another look at it and bring it back at another day. We've got plenty of time. We want to make sure we got all the I's dotted and the t's crossed and the m's underlined. At this time we want to pull this back take another look at it, discuss this with the Chairs and with others, thank you folks. At this time we are going to call for Senate Bill 544,

House Bill 156 legal notice requirements, internet publications, representative Avila and Senator Wade we do have a PCS before us, I have a motion from Senator Harrington to make the PCS part of the Bill all in favor aye, any opposed alright PCS Mr. Chairman if it's okay I would rather have a staff go through the Bill and then we'll discuss it. Mr. Chairman could we have a staff go through the Bill and explain it and then we can discuss it. I will, we'll do that at this time and let the staff have their shot at it Behind you Mr. Chair, the previous section one of the PCS would require that when a governmental notice is published, require to be published more than once and is paid for by a unit of government and the cost of publication is not reimbursed from a third party the newspaper can charge the normal rate for the first publication but any second and successive publication cannot be in a rate greater than 85% of the charge for the first publication. Section two of the bill are on page two lines 33-the top of page three require that a news paper that maintain in a website to actually post the legal notice on their website and maintain a search ability function for those notices it also requires the news papers that maintain in a website to provide electronic notifications any person who has requested such notification when the first in series of legal notices is published and also specifies that any year in the placement of governmental legal notice on news paper, internet website is considered harmless if the unit of government has also post to it on their website. Section 3 of the bill would establish optional authority for counties, cities and local board of election to adopt and ordinate specifying that they will do electronic notice and we all publishing and standard news paper if they do that the ordinance has to provide for at least once a month for the first 12 months for publication of instruction on how to access all electronic notices. Any notice that is published under such ordinance has to be published on the website the governing board at the time that it is statutorily required to be published. It has to be published on the website main page with links to all other notices it also has to be maintained for one year on that website. The union of government will also have to maintain a notice book in the office of the clerk or any other individual employee of the governing board that is so designated, and a copy of the notice would have to be mailed or emailed any individual that requested notification in that manner. Sections 4, 5 and 6 would modify the definition of or publications for counties or cities and also in the local government budget in fiscal control act to include such electronic notice that is done in accordance with the ordinance adopted by the county or city and also add a third option for publication to be insertion in a news publication that is circulated in the area published at least once per week within an audited readership of at least 25, 00 people and I believe section 7 is a conforming change and section 8 is also in section 9 this is also effective October 1st, 2015. Thank you. Would ask representative Avila since this is a house bill if she has any comments she wants to make relative to the bill. Rep. Avila floor is yours. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to thank staff for the review of the bill since I got a copy probably about an hour and a half ago to figure out what was going on, so I did understand what I thought I was reading. I am standing before you to ask you if not to support this PCS for one primary reason. Whether we have a bill here that is percieved to be for special interest, whether that's newspapers, Bluecross, BlueShield, Duke Energy or any other interests that you can name. The legislation that we pass here is ultimately passed into law for the

people of the state of North Carolina and their best interest, and that was the reason I sponsors House Bill 156 to start with because what we were starting down is a very anti-open, transparent direction of government we already have some legislation moving through in different areas that's going to limit peoples ability to protest when things happen in their neighborhoods. Now we're passing legislation that's going to limit their ability to know initially what's going on in their neighborhood and what we're doing is kind of rushing the fences so to speak. I'm not saying that technology is not the way we're going but we cannot do it in 12 months. Because we're not going to make technology available to all the people of North Carolina to the degree that's necessary for them to have the knowledge of what we do down here in 12 months. The misconception that we got with these large counties which is 18% of our counties but it's two thirds the population state of North Carolina. Is it these large counties we can translate that urban are in a better shape to move technology direction quicker than the more rural areas and I will tell you that is a wrong conception of where we are because I live in a County that has some very significant pockets of poverty I also live in a County where several of the municipalities are doing everything they can to get technology to there citizens. So my question is, is this the time when we've got newspapers to say it's going to be newspapers or technology? My proposition is it's newspapers and technology currently. Will it change? Yes it's going to change we see it now. Newspapers are coming online everyday but for the benefit of people of North Carolina so they know what doing down here. We cannot make this change the way we want to go currently. That was the argument I used throughout my entire presentation of house bill 156. They were all well a little favour they use to stay in business I didn't do any research to find out the truth to that because that was not motivation and then all that is causing our counties and our cities so much money, yet I just heard Senator Raven stand here and tell you that when we register these little businesses that make a thousand dollars or more that, sorry, it's a cost of business. Well for our government, it's a cost of businesses ladies and gentlemen. Please, vote no on this PCS. Thank you representative at the central laid[sp?]. I will ask for your comments on this bill on SPTS day. As you can see in the bill, this is for counties over a population of over 150, 000, and I can take my county for an example whose asked for this about the city and the county. I have this option, but before I do this, Steph could you read out please the counties and cities that right now can do this by law. Steph, you have that? I do, if we're talking about the publication by electronic means. If you go to the last page of your summary, right now Cabarrus county, the city of Raleigh, the town of Lake Waccamaw an apex corner on my day one curry thank you thank you senator tenure[sp?] yes, and I think Representative Abel represents part of that area where they're already allowed to do electronic notices and what this does is in my county and I'm going to discuss it first, the newspaper readership is about 50, 000 we have 500, 000 families of people and and go for county, so, it's not reaching very many. This is just allowing local governments we're all moving ahead technologically, and especially in urban counties. And this would just allow them put it on the website where I guess you and I and most people, if they want to know something, then they first go to the computer, Google it and see what it says. I don't run out and get my newspaper and look through, what's not very thick now, you know 10 or 15 pages is sieved by compartment [xx] front in there, I go into the computer.

It also would also would allow free newspapers to publish. The important thing about this until now they couldn't publish these things, they're not even allowed to. Now if we're worried about access to public notices, what is more accessible than something free. Certainly not a paid subscription you have to take to the newspaper. So my point is the county or the municipality would have the chance to have a public hearing and they have to pass an ordinance that the people want this and this is what they're going to do. So it's represented to the people in a public hearing before it could ever be enforced, and the nice thing about it is they can put it on the website, and put it in the newspaper, or they continue to do just the newspaper. It's a choice to let them do this. This does several things. It makes it OK for put it on the website, and the second thing is it makes it okay for them to use free papers. And if we want people to really have access to information, I can't think of a better way. Mr Chairman, I'm ready for [xx]. Thank you, Sen. Wade. At this time, before we go to questions, and we do have a couple here, we do have an amendment that's been send forth by Sen. Jackson. Do you want to explain your amendment? Thank you, Mr. Chairman and sort of to follow up on Sen. Wade's comments about trying to make this available to everybody, my amendment basically reduced at 25, 000 audited caps to a 10, 000 audited cap which would actually open it up to a lot of smaller papers especially in my district. And I would appreciate your support. Thank you, Senator. That's the amendment. Sen. Wade, do you want speak on the amendment? Yes. Sen. Jackson and I discussed this, and I support this completely. I think you've heard the amendment, and you've heard the application on the amendment, Senator Apodaca. Thank you Mr. Chairman. The more I think about the free newspaper clause in this bill, the more I dislike it. They're some papers I don't even want to pick up I mean and most of them had me lampooned in, but that's a personal thing. The various issues for those newspapers senator. Senator Van Duyn knows, she's seen them so I think he'd been a couple with me. I just, I don't I just can warm up to the free ones now the more I think about it. I just think that's a bad move all together because you don't know what you're getting and I just can't support it. Alright senator, senator [xx] you had a question prior to the amendment, alright we go back to the bill on the moment and I want the amendment Senator Daniel. Thanks Mr. Chairman from the bill sponsor to clarify that the $ 25000 or 10000 newspaper requirement only applies to those counties that are above $135000 that is for sure that is correct I that is a good clarifying question senator Abalon about the amendment yes I have a question in terms of from staff could you define for me what an audited newspaper circulation is? Staff I think in circulation but go ahead I believe we are in Dr Senator Daniel's question first the changes to the definition of publication applicable to all counties, and cities not just those above threshold of 150, 000 people audited component as under standard, there are organisations that actually do audit readerships of newspapers the, you may have to pay to get the results, but when they audit they determine over a period of time, how many people are actually are reading that particular newspaper on any given time period alright those house bill are audited. Senator Wade. Yes I have a weekly paper when it comes out they are audited and answered your question a bit more precisely they actually write on the vans and go with them to pick up the news papers so we left in stacks they see how many are taken from stack and I will add this to if you didn't know that daily publish newspaper those that you pay for they do they can count if they go to a hotel and give out papers they can count that as circulation even though you don't pay for them so we are in a hotel and get free papers to account everyone of those in the circulation. We are on the top about the amendment have you had a questio amendment? Mr. Chair follow up Senator Apodaca.

How about most of the daily news paper [xx] of the Daily Carolinian and one know there's a university newspaper Daily Tar Heel and also I think there's the NC State paper so of course without a doubt  i'm sure, but would that not affect this paper, all sorts of technically if they have publicly [xx] Okay I believe we can say yes to that. Steph I think we are right there. Center Jackson, the other Jackson., Jackson down the left you all get the lucky one the smart one I was just hoping representative Avery would share her thoughts on this amendment I think I know she spoke to the bill, and she had a question about the amendment, I would to just want to hear her thoughts Well, if she wants to speak she can speak. I think she does It falls into my objection to the change from the two-page bill that we sent over from the house. Now, she didn't like she's not going to like the other one, okay? but we've got that, right. On the amendment, all in favor say A. Any opposed? the ayes have it. Senator Rucho I learnt that from him. I learn from the Master, I learn from the Master, alright. Now we are back to the bill, we are back to the bill I do have no more questions that I say, yes it is. Senator [xx], it's yours. Senator Wade just trying to get a sense, maybe I don't get this in rural areas. For town councils, for county moments. How often does these organizations changing their meetings? My Counties tend to set meetings like the first Monday of the month they set other meetings the second Tuesday of the month. I have towns that haven't change that meeting in 30 years, they still have to buy the same in the paper every time they meet at the highest rate and there is a lot of help here at least getting that down to 85% what they were being charged, but for those type of things it is apparently these [xx] is over 150 for having to do all these notices in the paper to find out when the meeting is, do they just randomly pop up in the morning and decide to have a meeting and tell the paper? Yes Mr. Chairman Senator Wade, you can respond. I can speak for my area, they have a set time and it's been that way for as long as I can remember and if they do change it, they change at the beginning of at the year and it stays that way, very seldom do they make that change and if they do, it's published on the website Very good. Seeing hands over here, I believe I saw Senator Sanderson first, and then Tarte, and then Waddell over here. Thank you Mr. Chairman, just to comment. I want to lend my support to some of the things Representative Waddell said, this proposed legislation has been kind of hanging around for several years in the general assembly. I have not been in favour of it even since I first saw it this year I have concerns with the speed in which we're doing this with no overlap time, not giving for the opportunity to switch from the printed word to electronic versions. I think that is going to create some problems I'm also concerned about the signal this sends. I was elected on the assumption of we would change what had seemed to be a government organization to one that was open, I'm not sure that this sends a message. My other concern is that we still have a the numbers that I have read is about in excess of 30% of our population still read hard copy newspapers, and I don't think even if you take that 30% that you can really estimate how many people that really affect if I read my newspaper, it might come to my house and I read it, but that doesn't give you any indication of how many people I might talk to myself and so I am really concerned about the direction that the legislation maybe taking us in Thank you Mr. Chairman Thank you Senator, [xx] Senator [xx] JT Thank you Mr. Chairman, I was just going to comment, one on, even town boards having been a former Mayor have regular meetings, oftentimes you've got a CUP or CZ process permitting and you are required to know what those are just that you have a meeting, the other side of the equation is, this is going to save hundreds of thousands of

dollars for the [xx] this power that uses money now the means nothing I don't believe and I had the question would be, does this prevent any of the newspapers from publishing this information at all? Senator Wade you can node your head you may know absolutely not, they could make any public notice they like in the newspapers Moving along here Senator [xx] Thank you Mr. Chair, as I was looking at the bill analysis, and some of the requirements for the newspapers as they publish these notices one of the things you say that must be published appera I'm saying they did it appears, have you thought about, have you done any research on the number of papers that maybe put out a business may not be able to participate as a result of the requirements and I say this, we do have small newspapers, who are just struggling and they have leaderships of more than 150 that requirement. Some of the constraints that are put in on them may put them out of business Senator [xx] you may respond SenatorRiddell  my answer to that is I don't think the government in the business subsidizing the newspapers even though at this point I think we are, I don't think that's our main goal, to make sure a private entity stays in business making local government support that. Senator Wales I saw your hand and that is the last hand that I Sen. Daniels again. We'll here from him too. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a question for staff. If I'm reading this right, can you lawyer into English. Page three, line 28, section five, does this say that if I want to know about legal notices, whether I'm away on a business trip or in the General Assembly or sick and don't have time to read my entire paper, I can go to my local county and city and sign up to get a notice by mail or by email automatically every time there's publishing a legal notice? So whether I have a computer, access to a computer, can get to the website, whatever, at the most basic level, I'm going to get a notice in mailbox. Staff? Yes, Sen. Wells. That requirement is mandatory if the unit of local government in a county with a population of above 150, 000, and they ought to publish electronically. Yes, any one could go to the clerk and say, I want to receive a hard copy or an email copy. Sen. Daniels and Sen. Brock Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sen. McKissick, I've been missing you. This is just a clarifying question, Mr. Chairman. The way I read the bill these provisions only apply to to governmental notices and not to any legal notices required by parties to civil actions, estates, notices of sale, foreclosure is that correct?  That's correct, but I want staff to answer that.  Well, we've got that. Let's try it. Sen. Brock Follow up with Sen. Wells' comment and question. If we're looking at some of our areas aid in inspiration for wage salary people do not get the paper about 70% of the people do not get the paper. Impressive, senator Grayson in the head on this one where they are allowed to keep this in their inbox and allowed to have access but we going to find  out about open government that is why there is what everything in this all deal have this allows us to see what is happening and often straightforward to see the government's business. So this is a great piece of legislation, it opens it up, and it will save our town some money. Senator I'm just trying to get some sense about the full scope of the notices that no longer need to be published. in jurisdiction to if you have notices going out about matters pending before board of adjustments, or matters pending before planning or and things of that nature where, you're really trying to make certain that everybody's aware of some impending potential change. Would it affect those type of notices separating apart from legal notices that might be published about the date and time of a meeting if we're talking about section three of the bill which is the portion where the jurisdictions within a county of a population of 150, 000 or more or have the option to adopt this ordinance. It would be up to each individual jurisdiction adopting the ordinance to set the categories of notices that would be published electronically verses and the

traditional legal notices section of the written newspaper. Follow up. So each county or city would then have to, and I guess would need to be done by the county and city or for any jurisdiction within there, if you got five towns each one is going to have to got back and may have a difference standard for what discovered Correct each of those five towns would adopt their own ordinance the county would adopt their own ordinance if they so chose. Alright, and one final comment Mr. Chair I think that the concern I have is that I think there needs to be some uniformity I would hate to think about place like Wake county you got Carry, you got Marshville, you got Nightdale, you got Riley you don't want all these different jurisdictions coming here with different standards, I'd much rather be one standard that universities applies The people know and recognize in [xx] there was a reasonable compromise that was established between the association representing the newspaper in the state and of course those who work with him over on the house. I think they came over carefully crafty compromise it made sense. Sometimes I worry about an attended consequences and I see here where there could be potentially be some Thank you senator. Saying no other hands I believe we have from the audience I think we have less high [xx] than news excuse me representative Avla you wanted a statement? Go back to a couple of that were made earlier with particularly Senator Brooke and Senator Wales, and I agree whole heartily. We have option down here that people could click on button on the senate website and be mailed a notice of this meeting today. What if you are a construction company and you want to do business with the state. Will you go, if we change it to this? How many websites are you going to have to go to? How many different locations are you going to have to go to? How many emails will you have popping in your box if you want the 14 municipalities in White County to notify you of when they're holding a meeting or some type of notice has been given out. And that's the point that to do and carry out the way you two were talking about, you have to got a computer. That's still an issue, a big issue in the states and I think it's one we have to consider who will pass this legiatlation. The other is Senator Daniel's comment about the fact that this does not apply to private citizens. We're standing here with power in our feats and we're putting out what's good for us. Thank you representative Avra at this time I do have audience [xx] the news reporter [xx] It's not [xx] North Carolina you have two minutes sir. Thank you, I'll be brief and just a couple of points on the newspaper business for decades and that would be an absolute disaster. You'd have, and I've seen them come and go, publications right left, you wouldn't know what should be involved with these publications. I call it the piggly wigglyy the provision where they take 1000 put them in the pig of weekly, and 1000 restaurant, and 1000 in the dumpster, I don't think there's an electronic provision for these newspapers be no accountability, and Senator while there maybe for your newspaper in Greensboro, I can see that possibly but I've seen him come and go, you put him in free newspaper the accountability isn't going to go down down the tubes I can promise you that, I've seen it. We've talked about is this a financial benefit for newspapers for us, for me, this is all about the right to know, accounting duty of the public, and if you put public notices on the government website I contend few people are going to see those notices. You spoke with the Greensboro paper I'm not sure what their circulation is maybe 50, 000, but I can assure you their website which this bill would require them to be apart of, their traffic is exponential compared to the Guilford County website for example so what HB156 does it takes that accountability to much higher level both in print and in accountability. We digital. I'll close with this, I got to meet a lot

of you all around that the press association had over course of the years, and I found that many of you are people of principle just like we have on the newspaper business, and this principle of making has made people aware of what's going on in their government, is a principle that I think that we would all agree that we can't forget and this bill without a doubt, would truncate the public's ability to know and that's what this is about. Thank you very much. Thank you [xx] at this time, I'm going to ask that we pull this bill and have a little more discussion about it I'm sure that with your approval Senator Wade will do that and we will put some minds together thank you folks the meeting is adjourned.